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Post by Ilúvatar on Feb 7, 2011 22:17:56 GMT
Hello, I'd like to learn how to hand sharpen my swords. I read the stuff on SBG and watched TomK's vid, but am still unclear on a few things. Any tips would be much appreciated. Also, in depth descriptions or an in depth video will be much appreciated as well.
Thanks Paul
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Post by chrisperoni on Feb 7, 2011 23:18:13 GMT
It would help to know what you unlcear about. Tom has 3 or 4 videos on sharpening and together they really do give a detailed explanation. I've linked to a more complete list of his vids: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=84
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Post by Elheru Aran on Feb 8, 2011 15:28:52 GMT
Sharpening is a little bit esoteric but ultimately all it takes, as with anything else, is practicing until your fingers bleed... and then practicing some more. Well, hopefully you won't have bloody fingers (unless you grab the sharpened sword by the blade or something like that), but you get the idea. The biggest things, I think, are knowing how to remove extra material from the blade if you have a very blunt edge, maintaining a consistent angle(s), and being able to clean up the blade after.
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Greg
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Posts: 1,800
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Post by Greg on Feb 8, 2011 23:21:15 GMT
I wouldn't say it was only known to a select few. The concept is rather easy. But it's kinda like knowing the theory of driving a car, and actually driving. The biggest road block that people run in to when sharpening is afraid that they will mess up their blades beyond all repair. It happens among first time sword owners the most. I remember when I got my first, and attempted to sharpen it. No matter what I did, the blade still remained dull. One night, I even worked myself into a panic because I thought my sword would NEVER be sharp again. But now, I can put an edge on a blade that you could literally shave with. It would be cumbersome, shaving with a sword and all, but possible. Now, if you mean hand sharpen as in "no power tools" then here is what I did. First you will need at LEAST 4 things if you are starting with a blunt: -Draw File- Depending on what part of the country you live in, they are called different things. The easiest way is to go to your local hardware store and tell them that you need a file to sharpen a machete. They will point you to the right kinds. -Sandpaper- Wet/Dry types work the best for me. If your blade already has someone of an edge, start with 400 grit. You'll need at least one pack per sword I've found. If you want a shinier blade, then you'll need grits like 1000-2000. These can be found in auto parts stores like Auto Zone, Pep Boys, etc. -A sander- This could be anything from a small block of wood all the way to a drywall sander. It's basically a flat back to put your sandpaper on so you have a uniform surface to push against the blade. -WD40 or some other lubercant- This will be used to keep the paper wet. You CAN sand dry, but you'll go through papers faster and the edge won't be as smooth. You can also use water for this, but if you use water, it will evaporate quickly and you'll need to keep reapplying it. Also, if you have any sort of light oil around, that'll work too. Optional Items: A workbench and some clamps. I've found it's much easier to keep a constant angle when I clamp the sword down to a workbench. I've also used a simple 1x1" post and worked on my lap. Having your blade stationary makes the process much easier, but I have sharpened without it, and it gets messy and sloppy. Bench vice. I've really only used this in conjunction with a 1x1" post. I'll use the vice to hold the post and then clamp the blade to the post so I can work both edges of the blade. Tools to take apart your blade, if applicable. If you have a modern cutter that has the hex nut assembly, then it's always a good idea to keep that allen wrench close at hand. When it's possible, I like to take the sword apart to where I'm only working with the blade. That way I can keep the blade flat against a surface without the guard getting in the way. To Sharpen: Now comes the easy part. After you have your blade secured and your sandpaper on it's block or other flat surface, simply press the sand paper to the flat of the blade and run the sandpaper from the guard to the tip. Make sure that you are slightly pulling the sandpaper off of the blade as you go. This is important for two reasons: 1.So you won't ruin the edge by pushing the sandpaper into it 2.So you won't cut the sandpaper. Now just make sure to count your strokes. I like to do 10 per side before turning the blade over. This is where the 1x1" post comes in handy if you have a double edged sword. I can sharpen both edges on one side before flipping the blade over. And that is pretty much how you sand. Just keep the sandpaper flat against the blade. Granted, unless you have a padded sanding block, this will give you a straight edge. But a straight edge is better then no edge. If you need any further help, or need some clarification, feel free to ask.
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Post by Johan Elder on Feb 9, 2011 1:30:29 GMT
Anyone want to go over the procedure, or have any tips for removing a secondary bevel?
I'm waiting for my first sword, an H/T EMSH, and from the reviews of the H/T's I've seen the edges are hit and miss.
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Greg
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Posts: 1,800
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Post by Greg on Feb 9, 2011 1:38:23 GMT
Well, the latest news on the EMSH is that there is not a secondary bevel any longer. Granted, this could have been one of the "hits" but I think Hanwei finally straightened out their QC.
But as far as taking one off, what you'll want to do is sand the high spot. When you look at the edge, you'll see where the secondary bevel meets the primary bevel. Right where they meet is where you want to sand. If you have a belt sander, then this is easy. A hand sander takes a little more time and you can't keep the paper flat against the blade like you normally would.
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Post by Johan Elder on Feb 9, 2011 2:22:28 GMT
Ok. So essentially you take down that high spot so that you can then blend the primary bevel into the appleseed edge?
I saw that comment on a recent EMSH, so I'll see how the one I ordered looks.
Thanks for the tip Greg.
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Post by 14thforsaken on Feb 9, 2011 3:18:13 GMT
I probably sharpen my swords differently than most of the ways you will see posted here. I do it the really old school way, with a whetstone and a bit of oil. That is how I hand sharpen all of my European swords. It just takes a lot of patience and repetition. Once you learn the correct angle to hold the stone and the right amount of pressure to apply, you're golden. Soon enough it becomes muscle memory and you can sit there and do it mindlessly while watching television.
Unfortunately, most of this something you pick up by feel (at least for me it was) and I am not able to tell you exactly how hard or what angle. It can differ from sword to sword or from person to person. I've never seen two people do it exactly the same way; there are always some quirks unique to each person.
All you really need is a willingness to try and some elbow grease.
Also, I generally put what I would call working edges on my swords. They are sharp enough to cut with, but not so sharp that just running my finger over the edge will cut it. I have found this type of edge to be more durable and easier to maintain. In essence I am letting the mass of the sword and the correct edge alignment to do most of the work for me. Good old physics 101, F=MA. IIRC most swords used this type of edge as opposed to a razor sharp edge. I've found at least in my experience, it is harder to chip or dent a working edge than a razor edge.
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Greg
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Post by Greg on Feb 9, 2011 3:44:46 GMT
Oddly enough, when a buddy of mine accidently hit a screw with my sword, it didn't chip. It did, however, put a nasty roll in the edge. If you have a good edge geometry, then having it razor sharp isn't bad. It's not like I'm cutting through people with it. If I WERE cutting through people, I'd keep it at a "working edge." But since I'm just cutting water bottles, having a 3 foot razor is really fun.
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Post by 14thforsaken on Feb 9, 2011 4:07:47 GMT
It can be fun. I guess I'm used to keeping working edges on blades and using whetstones because that's how my Dad taught me to do it, how his Dad taught him and so on.
Sadly I see fewer and fewer people doing that as time goes by. I always kind of like seeing certain skills passed down from one generation to another. If for no other reason when the Zombie Apocalypse comes and there are no more power tools, those of us that know how to hand sharpen a blade using only a stone are going to have an edge on survival versus everyone else if you'll pardon the pun.
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Post by Johan Elder on Feb 9, 2011 4:22:26 GMT
Hi 14thforsaken.
How do you use the whetstone on a sword blade? Perpendicular to the blade, slightly rolling it to get the appleseed edge? Or straight along?
My experience with whetstones is only sharpening chisels and block plane blades. Little oil, hold the blade on its bevel, and back and forth or small figure eights and then lay it flat on its back to remove the burr. Proceed to the finer stone and repeat.
We're talking *much* smaller blades than a sword though... and you don't want an appleseed edge on a chisel..
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Post by 14thforsaken on Feb 9, 2011 4:44:19 GMT
Keep in mind that this technique may not be for everyone, it's just one that works for me. If using a belt sander or sanding blocks work best for you, by all means do that. I actually find it relaxing and peaceful using a whetstone, the sound and the patterned motions allows me to almost go into a trance where I am thinking of nothing and only existing.
I generally hold the blade across my lap or point down with the cross-guard against my shoulder for swords. I hold the stone at an angle to the blade which can vary depending on how thick the blade is or whether I'm starting from scratch or just touching an edge up. I start by putting a little 3 in 1 oil on the stone and make long slow even passes down the blade. Every so often, I will switch to the other side and do likewise. I always make my passes in the same direction, I find that it tears the blade up less and reduces the amount of material removed from the edge. I will also take a soft cloth, generally silk and use it to wipe down the blade every so often to remove the metal grit and shavings that build up as I don't want to be digging those into the blade.
Mainly I go by "feel" as I've done it enough times that my hands just seem to know the right angle to hold the stone at. I don't roll the stone, however, I gradually change the angle I use with the stone after a certain number of passes or time and by gradually doing this, I can get a good working edge that is like an appleseed edge. Again, its a feel thing. Personally, before trying this on a sword, I would practice on some cheap pocket knives until you start to gain a feel for what you are doing and feel more confident about the process.
Now, this doesn't get the sword razor sharp. I can run my finger gently down the edge and not cut it but it will cut other targets just fine with a normal force. I've always done it this way because first its not always a good idea to have a "tool" you are often using so sharp you can easily cut yourself and second because it leaves a thicker edge that is less like to chip roll or dent. When I sharpen a sword, I'm trying to achieve the same kind of edge I would use if I was using it for real, i.e. against human armored targets.
Again, this is just the way I do it. It is not the one right way or the only way, its just the way I was taught to do it from my Dad, and he from his and so forth. It will also be the way I teach my son too. I like having little things that are passed down from one generation in the family to another.
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Post by MuerteBlack on Feb 9, 2011 6:50:01 GMT
Of course, there are always nuances. What type of whetstone are we talking about? What grit? Using a single, rough stone, or a series of stones with finer and finer grits? Even without power tools, I can mount sandpaper onto a block and use it as if it were a whetstone and increase the grit up to 2500 or 3000. By that time, I can shave with the edge. Also, different people have different definitions of what "sharp" is. Some people would call a ragged edge "sharp" because its bevel angle is 25 degrees instead of 30. However, some people would consider the 30 degree edge sharper if it's cleaner and less likely to dull due to the ragged teeth of a rougher edge. Personally, even if I were making a edge for a sword that was going to be cutting a lot of chainmail, even if I didn't make the edge quite meet to make it stronger, I would still want to make it smooth and clean to avoid pitting from the "teeth" on a ragged edge getting ripped off during use. Even if an edge looks clean to the naked eye, an examination under a magnifying glass can surprise the viewer. Although, thinking about it again, I would still want the edge to meet completely and be fine and clean, but have its geometry be wider and more reinforced with an appleseed shape for splitting chain.
I use my swords sharpened in that fashion on cardboard targets which are actually fairly abusive towards edges, and although they lose their shaving qualities fairly quickly, they retain a clean, paper-cutting edge seemingly forever.
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