|
|
Post by yanniskusogaki on Jan 3, 2011 19:26:31 GMT
I have never before in my life worn plate armor and taken a blow in it until today.I visited a friend who owns a self compiled set.Some GDFB stuff along with some I couldn't recognize plus a few pieces he made himself.So he let me take a few hits in it with various weapons.This man spares no strength when it comes to hitting people,I got the idea he really wanted to hurt me...Anyway,to the point,I was reminded of a battle scene from the old anime movie "ninja scroll"and an argument I had with some of my friends about it.In the scene two men fight,one has a standard nihon-to and the other one just his left arm encased in some sort of plate armour.In case you don't know what I'm talking about,the first 2 minutes of this video is the scene: ... re=relatedI had not the foggiest about anything swordsmanship back in the day but I was really excited about the second man's choice of weapon.In my head it went like"If you are unarmed and somebody takes a chop at you,your first reflex would be bringing your arm up to block it...and of course lose your arm.But if you put your arm in some good armor then BOOM instant ultimate defence.And you still got both arms to spare.".Of course I didn't calculate the shockwaves going to your arm,the pain, the chance of bone fracture etc. and the rest of the people just ate me alive for the crap I said.But after today's experience I can say it doesn't sound half as far fetched as I was lead to think.The blows to the arms were far from unbareable even when he used his 2 handed sword.And I wasn't even wearing any serious padding under it. So to make a long question short,wouldn't approaching a swordsman enemy 1 on 1 with your arm encased in armour (and maybe something small in the other hand,or even the same hand)be a good choice to make a big part of his swordsmanship useless?Even more if said arm guard also had a chainmail or leather glove allowing you to use a slight moment of pause to just grab the blade.I already know some cases used it,like the gladiator manica,I am just wondering why there is no "bigtime german battle system of left arm plate armor and a messer in the right" or something of the sort(althought I remember I saw something similar on youtube one time).It sounds too functional to just ignore. |
|
|
|
Post by MEversbergII on Jan 3, 2011 20:22:26 GMT
The video is blocked in the US unfortunately.
I would imagine it would work. Mind the messer manuals talk about duels and some measure of self defense over battlefield stuff.
M.
|
|
|
|
Post by yanniskusogaki on Jan 4, 2011 2:25:11 GMT
Ugh...self-owned!!Crap...Well,the next best thing is this if it plays at all: ... re=relatedCrappy quality plus dubbed but you can get the point.It's just a little bit between 1:20 and 1:45. |
|
|
|
Post by MEversbergII on Jan 4, 2011 16:32:45 GMT
Ah yes, that scene. I had forgotten how cool ninja scroll was.
Another issue might be deflection. If the weapon hits and bounces, it is not in your control.
M.
|
|
|
|
Post by yanniskusogaki on Jan 4, 2011 17:43:45 GMT
Yes,jolly good movie...well,OK not jolly,but good.
Bounce huh?Maybe it would in cases,but from what I saw and felt it isn't a sturdy/solid enough object (meaning your arm+padding+14 gauge plate steel)to have a blade bounce.It king of absorbed the blow more than deflect it.Good point though,bouncing could prove deadly.
|
|
|
|
Post by Elheru Aran on Jan 4, 2011 22:31:30 GMT
If I may ask, just how hard was your friend hitting your arm?
While a solid blow from a sword probably won't put much of a cut into a good vambrace (that's the technical term for lower-arm armour, btw), the thing about armour is that it not only absorbs the blow, it can't stop the force of the blow being *transferred* through the armour into the body underneath. Same reason you can knock a American football player unconscious from hitting him on his helmeted head hard enough. A honest hard whack from a sword blade onto a vambrace could very possibly result in a broken arm if you aren't fast enough to actually try to deflect the force of the blow.
In practice, historically it's almost always been more effective to use a shield as the off-hand defense rather than just armour. The shield can cover more of your body than your arm, which even covered in armour doesn't offer the rest of your body that much protection, and a good sword-wielder can get at you from all kinds of angles that you might not be able to respond to fast enough.
Say your opponent, with a messer, brings it down in an overhead blow. You deflect it off your left arm to the outside-- where he can bring it down onto your leg. That's just an example, and remember that armour does slow you down to some degree-- maybe not much if it's light and you're used to it, but it *does* slow you down at least *some*, and you wouldn't believe how fast a skilled swordsman can be...
So, that's why we have historic examples of sword-and-buckler fighting, and two-handed swordsmanship... not so much single-hand sword in armour!
|
|
|
|
Post by yanniskusogaki on Jan 5, 2011 2:58:00 GMT
I would say Russian tournament-ish level of strength.I'm sure he could load up a lot more but it would be too exagerated for a realistic cut in a fight.
Hmm yes,the whole thing is starting to sound more questionable by the minute.One way to test it...TO THE JUNK ARMOURY!!!
"ting ting ting pong pink pong ping driiiiiiilll driiiiiiiiiiiiiiill"...Hey daaaaaad,would you come out back to put this on and stay still for a bit?...No?...crap...Hey moooooom....
|
|
|
|
Post by Polarclaw on Jan 5, 2011 3:37:49 GMT
Call me crazy but if there was such armour it would've been utilized by light swordsman techniques. The best I can think of is a vambrace as mentioned by Elheru. I don't know what martial art would teach you to use them effectively, but maybe the batman styled vambraces. It would reduce the bouncing and because of the hooks you can control the opponent's sword to a direction you can expect and use work with. www.instructables.com/id/Batmans ... Vambraces/ Now if you know how to work leather, if you keep strips of metal and the spikes bolted to heavy leather, you could land yourself some pretty sweet arm guards. |
|
|
|
Post by Elheru Aran on Jan 5, 2011 16:31:10 GMT
You have to draw a line somewhere with how much you dress up your armour, though-- between what's sensible, and what will be too heavy and/or too dangerous to yourself! Armour does exist to protect one's body, that is its main function, but the point is it's a *passive* defense, not *active*. It defends by being there when you need it, instead of being moved by you into the right place to block a blow; you don't have to *think* about it, unlike you do with a shield or buckler, whatever. Another possible reason why there aren't any schools of fighting with armour as an active defense-- back in the day where you could expect to run into knights and such, they would be maybe 10%, 20-30% at the very most of an army. The rest are all peasants or such, with... spears, halberds, pikes, pole-axes, pole-hammers, war-hammers, axes, messers... and out of those, the polearms are specifically for the purpose of keeping the armoured knights at a distance, and then pounding the crap out of them inside their shell! Warhammers, especially, were the 'can openers' of the day-- many people have done simulations where they put armour or a helmet on a stand, and then take a good swing with a hammer. Pow-- right through. Sword? Puts a dent in the armour, maybe cuts lips a little, but doesn't usually go through. It's actually a wonder, I think, that we have so many *intact* suits of armour as we do in all the museums... I'd expect us to have a lot more that have holes and/or associated damage! But those were probably ditched after battles, or patched back up... when you remember that armour, back in the day, was equivalent cost-wise to buying an expensive car, it's no wonder a bunch of common soldiers might quietly pull off even damaged pieces of armour from dead knights and tell each other it'll just buff out  |
|
|
|
Post by yanniskusogaki on Jan 5, 2011 18:20:20 GMT
Good points.
|
|
|
|
Post by Polarclaw on Jan 6, 2011 3:56:04 GMT
Or maybe the armour we have today belonged to rich people (the only people who could afford their own armour). ANd they were also rich enough to stay out of real battles. Probably the most some nobility would do would be duels and like you said. Would probably just get it patched up/buffed out afterwards.
|
|
