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Post by yanniskusogaki on Dec 30, 2010 18:49:37 GMT
Greetings everyone.Good to re-enter SBG in the new forum after a long time.
It sounded like a beginers question so I came here.I also don't know if it's already been answered a hundred times and it's common knowledge but please humor me.
How come not all tangs weren't or aren't "sandwich" type intstead of "instert" type?
It looks structurally stronger since the blade doesn't abruptly get thinner at the tang (many blades break at that point) and it should be a million times easier to make a sandwiched handle (and maybe just wrap some leather around it).I know some of them where but most weren't,and I can think of a few reasons why,but none is good enough.Like the handguard issue that I don't consider a good reason to drop structural integrity for,there's so many other ways to do the guard,maybe even more adequately.The strength of the whole sandwich thing would also become bigger if both the holes for the pins would be at the end of the tang (lower from the gripping point)to avoid braking it at the upper hole,that is near the guard most of the times taking big stresses from blows(it also happens a lot).
Is there some physics thing I don't get about it?Would the vibration be too much?To tell you the truth, it felt the same to me if not better,more sturdy less scary.
Thanks for your patronage in advance.
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ghost
Member
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Post by ghost on Dec 30, 2010 19:37:40 GMT
Are you asking why a lot of Euros do not have a "tactical" tang construction like Japanese blades? Why do Euros commonly have guards that fit over shoulders and a tang that is quite a bit narrower than the blade? I am not understanding the sandwiching/tactical types question very clearly since there are pretty popular "sandwich" types out there. ( some cinquedeas, falchions, etc.)
The wider the tang, the stronger it is without a doubt.
1.Comfort?
I believe, and don't quote me, that the excess steel is not necessary for the job that the sword is designed for. I think the primary reason as to the "narrowing" tang construction is that it makes the sword comfortable to grip. I believe a lot of of the Euro blades (not including rapiers) have very wide blades trends when you get close to the hilt. (as opposed to katanas which are grip width already) How would you grip a truly "full" tang construction on a broadsword, longsword, etc? We still would have to narrow it down. I see a lot of ancient culture swords using the heavy wide tang/ "tactical/sandwich" to compensate for weaker metals (copper, bronze). I would assume as iron and steels weapons came about the issue of strength /weight ratio popped up.
2. Fighting styles?
If we say the weight issue is a problem, then why not make the pommel or guards lighter instead? A lot of the fighting used those german/italian half-swording techniques that needed heavy pommels/guards as offense/defense. (I can't picture people using the butt end of katanas, falchions, haha) Ergo, if you see modern tactical sword designs, there really is no "pommel" or much of a "guard." -due to the extra weight being present. In order to get some decent harmonics/performance, the pommel and guards need to be greatly reduced or eliminated. We would not be able to deliver the heavy blow from a pommel and there would be no way to hook with the guard (behind the knees or shields) nor slamming the guard into someones face ...and so on.
I am probably just spewing stuff outta my $emprini since I got no sleep last night. Do tell me if you get any great sources, since I would like to know the answers as well.
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Post by Anders on Dec 30, 2010 20:52:44 GMT
Well, there are the messers, which is a whole family of bladed weapons made in the style you are describing. So it's not like it wasn't an option.
My guess would be that it's a matter of mass distribution and stress tolerance physics. Mind you, just a guess. Could just as well be a matter of tradition and fashion for all I know.
Actually, the tang doesn't need to be as wide as the blade for it to count as a full tang/messer/"tactical" construction. The main thing is that it is the full width of the grip.
All swords with these wide type of tangs -including messers and katana- need to have a blade at least slightly broader then the tang anyway or the guard can't be attached properly.
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Post by rvhernandez on Dec 30, 2010 21:09:15 GMT
I like the question since I have thought about this too and, I'm willing to bet, so did many other people hundreds - thousands - of years ago as the sword developed. I'm no expert but I have made some observations that might be of help. (BTW: it would be nice if we could get the attention of some knowledgeable bladesmiths to help us out on the topic. I would especially like to know if there is a rule as to when the tang's width is sufficiently tapered and structurally sound versus when it becomes a "rat tail" with questionable to no strength). First...I don't believe the word "sandwich" is technically or commonly used to describe by what I assume you mean, and what I will call, the "width" of the tang (and not to be confused with the "thickness" of the tang and blade). So, moving right along... The sudden narrowing of the tang, more commonly found on European type swords, but also many Asian swords (Indian, Chinese, Philippines, etc) is historically accurate as can be seen in museum pieces. One has to assume that the principle (i.e., physics) must be sound since swords were truly meant to be battle ready in their day. My observation is that on well made swords (whether historical pieces or modern ones) the shoulders of the blade (intersection of blade and tang) is oten inserted into a recessed grove in the cross guard. [Here's a link to a picture that Kult of Athena has on VA's Signature Edition Bristol sword: kultofathena.com/images%5CCF403_3_l.jpg Notice how the blade of the sword goes into the cross guard, and is further supported with a V extension on the fuller.]. On good swords, this fit is tight. Therefore, when the hilt assembly is all fitted together tightly (cross guard, pommel, and handle), a lot of the forces that a sword encounters at the distal (tip) end is transferred mostly to the shoulders and guard of the sword, not the tang. No doubt stresses are transferred to the tang/hilt, but perhaps a lot less reduced than might be otherwise. My guess is that without this construction, as when a blade sits flush with the cross guard, the sword is more likely to fail with sufficient forces coming down on the blade/tang intersection. Many less expensive swords are made this way. But, a lot might also depend on the metals, construction, heat-treatment, etc. etc. Finally, you might ask 'why risk it and just keep the width the same as do Japanese katanas'? A guess is that our bladesmith-forefathers probably were faced with the same considerations of preserving resources (materials and labor) as today's market place. If you can design something with the same integrity but spend less valuable time and materials in the making of one sword, then you have just that much more to make two swords. I imagine that hundreds of years of trial-and-error, and including geography, cultural factors, and borrowing ideas, slowly shaped the designs we see today and which have withstood the test of time and many a battles. Looking forward to following this discussion...cheers! PS: I hope the link is not a violation of forum rules. If so, I guess I'll find out and will gladly edit the line. |
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Luka
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,848
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Post by Luka on Dec 30, 2010 22:26:32 GMT
Many tangs on originals are wider than on most, at least mid range, swords today. But it just isn't necessary to have a "messer" style tang and the cost of material is high. And for fittings you don't need as high quality metal as for the blade so you make tang just as wide as necessary, and fix the harmonics and balance with fittings of cheaper metal. Most fittings are not steel but iron, and good blades are usually steel. Although quite a bit iron swords were made too...
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Post by Sir Tre on Dec 31, 2010 3:19:48 GMT
i am going to go with Luka here. when i bought a tinker hanwei replacement blade, i pm'd tinker on another forum. he cautioned me regarding ballance and harmonics and linked me to an articl on his website. when i turned the blade into a jian there was a difference of about 1/2 inch on balance. this thew the harmonics off and was crappy cutting. i wrote shooter mike since my jian had a euro blade. shooter told me my nodes were different now and to move my cutting "zone to the new sweet spot. worked great after that. also if a blade is forged correctly, including heat treating... then the wider tang is not totally necessary for strength. my rodell jian has a serious ht that extends into the tang. was a royal bxxch of a time drilling it when i wanted to put a bamboo pin thru the handle/tang.
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Post by yanniskusogaki on Dec 31, 2010 3:24:55 GMT
Masters:Ghost,Anders,Hernandez and Luka,plus sir Tre,thank you for your eagerness to answer my question.You gave me a lot of info in such short time.Yes,indeed "sandwiched" is not much of a term,but thankfully it got through.As master Anders wrote,"the tang doesn't need to be as wide as the blade for it to count as a full tang/messer/"tactical" construction. The main thing is that it is the full width of the grip."I failed to note that.Anyways,from all that was said I get that when it was/is not "sandwiched" it was/is more a matter of "wouldn't" rather than "shouldn't".As for todays replica swords it is of course a matter of faith to the original.My choice (for all the good it does) would always be the "sandwiched"/messer type,given the fact that I could choose.Thanks again,I think I've been covered,but please do feel free to add and elaborate as much as you want.
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Luka
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,848
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Post by Luka on Dec 31, 2010 14:22:46 GMT
Just one more thing... It's good for a tang to be a bit soft. Actually quite a bit softer than blade. I think that Tinker tangs are about 30Hrc...
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Post by Sir Tre on Dec 31, 2010 18:34:33 GMT
yes... i do believe they have drawn back the HT on the tang for mor flex, but it is still tough as nails.
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Post by yanniskusogaki on Jan 2, 2011 3:35:07 GMT
Softer,yes...It should serve for better absorption of the shockwaves running down the blade.
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Post by f.m. on Jan 2, 2011 3:44:32 GMT
I do love the aesthetics of tactical/handle scales design on nearly any sword, and it does offer a little bit more strength and lasts longer, although 1000 years of swordsmithing can't be all wrong..i have both styles of construction in blades and i'm happy with a well built version of either..it's more of a style thing i think  |
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Post by Miekka on Jan 2, 2011 4:08:47 GMT
I have heard from time to time when it comes to the Sami knife aka leuku and puukko is the reason why they are traditionally made with a "stick" tang is to prevent the tang from being exposed to the extremely cold temperatures. Anyone who has ever worked with metals at very low temperatures knows that metal can start to become brittle, which is very very bad when you're using a blade like a leuku or puukko for very tough work most people wouldn't dream of using a knife for. Plus you don't want to be potentially gripping partially exposed bare metal when you're working in temperatures below freezing. A leuku with a stick tang can do anything from split wood via batoning, do bushcraft as good as any machete, and break bone while still lasting decades if made well. If it worked for the Sami, it darn well will work for me.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Jan 13, 2011 17:24:38 GMT
I would think that having the tang the same width as the entire grip would make the blade stronger, in an area where it doesn't need to be, and make the grip weaker.
The more critical areas of the tang are the shoulder where the blade transitions into the tang, and the end which should normally be keyed into the pommel. I've found that on knives and machetes I've owned which have scales pinned to the full width tang, years of use causes the pins to loosen or work the holes in the scales larger which then causes the scales to loosen. The vibrations from a sword would be even greater than on a shorter blade. On a nice strong sword grip, the wood sections are glued to each other on either side of the tang, then wrapped with cord, and then leather. I believe that to be a stronger grip construction than pinned scales.
You could wrap a grip that had the tang as wide as the scales, but you wouldn't really want a glued cord or leather wrap directly touching the sides of the tang as that would be prone to causing rust, though a modern epoxy could solve that potential problem. At that point you also no longer have a full width tang, since the cord and/or leather part of the grip is now wider than the metal of the tang.
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Post by RicWilly on Jan 13, 2011 18:52:25 GMT
When I was younger I searched for the full tang. I came to understand later that the hand that wields it is stronger. It's especially stronger when it can get a good grip on a right size tang.
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Post by ShooterMike on Jan 13, 2011 19:12:09 GMT
I like the "sandwich grip" terminology. that's what I have always thought of them as. The wooden grip scales are the bread and the tang is the meat. I have often wondered why this was not a more common feature on European medieval double-edged swords. It seem to become more common as we get into the later period swords. And I think it was more common than many people realize. I looked at roughly 20+ medieval swords at The Met's Arms & Armour collection in NYC. I would estimate that of that number, probably 6-8 had full width tangs. They were all late Crusades and later period pieces. Almost makes me wonder if some European swordsmiths may have picked up the habit from examining Saracen blades during the Crusades?
In any case, I have bothered Gus Trim on this topic on several occasions. His reasoning was one of harmonic balance and blade performance. I have never fully accepted that. But when I got one of his tactical swords with sandwich grip I began to realize that encompasing the tang in cord-wrapped wood acts as a shock absorber and a vibration dampener. So that may be a reason for European swordsmiths sticking to the traditional wood&cord covering over a slightly reduced tang. Same-same for Japanese swordsmiths. The key seems to be avoiding having the steel of the tang directly contact your hand.
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Post by yanniskusogaki on Jan 14, 2011 3:26:29 GMT
Hmmm yes, I thought if it was gonna be something it would be the vibration.Good point,still I'd vote for the sandwich though because as far as I noticed it wasn't much of a bother.
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