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Post by thatguy on Dec 8, 2010 16:02:59 GMT
We all know there are several beautiful and wonderous swords created by sword smiths that are too expensive for a casual collector to afford. With that in mind, the thought occured to me that it might be possible to commission a sword almost exactly like a high end sword from Albion or similar company through another company like Darksword or a smith like John Lundemo.
Strictly speaking, is this legally doable? The scenario I'm talking about is for a private one on one commission, not something to suggest to be mass produced and sold commercially. I love the Discerner sword Albion makes, but there's no way in hell I can afford it. If I provided pics, the original sketch, measurements, and all the pertinent construction details for this sword, could I commission it from someone else and get it at a price much closer to what I can afford? Or would making it so closely resemble the model Albion sells be considered copyright infringement? I know Darksword might not match the finer details, I'm more concerned with the overall appearance of the sword instead of satin finishes and I don't mind secondary bevels if unnavoidable.
Am I the only one who thought of this or has this been submitted to the forum before?
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Post by bloodwraith on Dec 8, 2010 16:14:39 GMT
That is perfectly feasible, I provide exhibit A;
www.fableblades.com/Excalibur.html
Though I have to say that you need to make some changes so it isn't exactly the same sword and I'd be surprised if you wouldn't be paying close to that with other companies. Though Brendan is affordable and a really great guy to do business with  . I wish you well in your endeavours and as I said yes it's fine just change some things around.
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Post by Morpheus on Dec 8, 2010 16:30:21 GMT
It would only be illegal if the original design was copyrighted or otherwise protected. I don't think it would be a problem in most cases. However, I don't know how much you would save if you have someone make a one-off version. That can still be quite expensive. If you decide to go ahead, please keep us updated.
Cheers.
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Luka
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Post by Luka on Dec 8, 2010 17:15:13 GMT
There are many versions of Excalibur/Discerner so I wouldn't be worried about that. And with historical swords one should try to get the pictures of the original and go from there. (Discerner is also historical sword, but most think of it as of Excalibur.)
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Post by Deepbluedave on Dec 9, 2010 10:15:29 GMT
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Post by chuckinohio on Dec 9, 2010 13:54:08 GMT
Having someone do a sword based on an Albion or the like shouldn't be a problem at all. Most all Albions are based on actual Historical examples, so what you are really copying is the copy of a Historical example.
Where you may run afoul of someone calling ethics into the mix is if you tried to commission a copy of say a Sampson piece, A Lundemo warder, or something real distinctive from another maker. Most makers have a piece that is distinctively their idea and creation, and to outright rip it may raise some questions.
Basing a blade on another makers distinctive signature piece, but with changes or modifications shouldn't pose too much of a problem, but you would in all likelyhood be at an Albion price point to have it done.
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Post by adtharp on Dec 9, 2010 15:15:24 GMT
You know, I'm curious about this too. Also, out of curiosity, are Albion's Museum Line swords hand forged, I guess for lack of a better term. I know that many mass produced swords are "hand forged" to some extent, but my favorite sword of all time has to be the Svante. www.albion-swords.com/swords/joh ... svante.htm It has been my favorite for probably longer than many people on here have been collecting swords  . But, after watching the How It's Made on Albion swords, I don't know if I could justify spending $3500 on a stock removal blade..... I mean, I love the looks of it, and I know Albion swords are VERY high quality, but really, $3500?!?! That is enough that I could easily commission my own one of kind of blade. So, can someone put my mind at ease and tell me that it is not stock removal to make the Svante, cause then I can start saving up for the next decade - or if not, I can start designing a svante inspired custom.... |
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Post by chuckinohio on Dec 9, 2010 16:14:05 GMT
As far as I know, they are manufactured the same as all other Albion swords.
What you are getting, and the justification for the price is-
A carefully researched blade that is a recreation of an existing example held in a museum.
The original is studied, weighed, measured, tasted, and generally perused very thoroughly.
You then receive a blade that is as close as you can come to owning the real thing without robbing the museum where the original is held. It will weigh the same, handle the same, and looks the same as the original. It is the pinnacle of historical accuracy as far as appearance and handling goes.
Having the same blade done completely by hand would probably drive the price to double what Albion asks for theirs.
Then again I may be wrong.................
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Post by Anders on Dec 9, 2010 16:48:56 GMT
I for one consider swords to be fairly open source things. Plus, the Discerner is itself based on a painting of a historical sword, which most likely also inspired the Excalibur movie sword. I'd say that's pretty public domain.
Though, this probably depends less on the legality and more on the attitude of the swordmaker in question. Some may not like the idea of copying someone's else's sword in great detail even if it is legal. More to the point, if you are going to commission a custom sword anyway, why the heck would you even want to copy a production sword? Isn't it a better idea to take this opportunity to have a sword that fits your preferences as much as possible? It seems like a waste to just settle for what is -lets be honest here- essentially a cheaper knock-off.
(Besides, unless the smith taking the comission has the actual original sword at hand, the copy probably won't become the same anyway.)
Unlikely. Even the Next Generation swords go for $700 to $1000+ depending on the model. If I'm not entirely misinformed, you can get a decent custom made for that kind of money. For some of the more inexpensive Museum Line swords, you might just as well want to buy from Albion since a good custom would probably be about the same. But the Discerner, or the Svante? Nah, I don't think so.
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Greg
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Post by Greg on Dec 9, 2010 19:23:04 GMT
+1 good sir!
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Post by adtharp on Dec 9, 2010 19:24:12 GMT
Well, I might pay double the price for the custom. My concern at the moment that they want $3500 for a production sword. I am not necessarily in the same predicament as the OP, right now I can't afford the $3500, but someday I might be able to, and we are talking about my dream sword. So, I wonder why I would pay $3500 for a sword that up to 999 other people have the exact same sword of. I want my own sword - this is MY dream sword as it were. It just seems a bit steep for a production sword.
On the other hand, I don't know why I care so much if some else has the sword - but for some reason I would rather pay $5000 for one that is "mine" (maybe even just altered slightly - damascus blade or something).
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Post by Bogus on Dec 10, 2010 0:00:11 GMT
Anything based on a historical example--as most swords are, Albion or no--is going to fall under prior art. You might run into trouble with a fantasy sword, maybe, but a lot of those are based on stuff that already is or will shortly be public domain. More to the point, I don't really think Albion has such huge piles of money and angst that they're going to start legal proceedings over a one-off custom sword after spending six months scouring the earth for a friendly judge that won't throw the case out on the grounds of epic fail. Unlike *some* industries, I don't really get the impression swordmakers get off on screwing the fans. That all being said, if you're going to go for a custom job you oughta get your moneys worth, and have them do some fun cool stuff that's not available anywhere else. |
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Post by chuckinohio on Dec 10, 2010 0:15:17 GMT
The easiest way to figure out which way to go would be to send out some feelers, and see what price point you are quoted.
John Lundemo does crazy cool work, and his prices seem to be a steal.
Challenge Brenno, his talents have yet to hit a limit from what I've seen.
Arms and Armor may or may not want to do it. Albion is pretty close to them and they may show up in the parking lot wanting to rumble :shock:
It would be real interesting to see what Jake Powning would do one for, especially with a pommel like "DuSith". I would hate to venture a guess.
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Post by Bogus on Dec 10, 2010 0:22:52 GMT
Yeah, I should have mentioned also you probably want to stick with a small, individual-guy type smith. Just because it's legal doesn't mean a lot of bigger companies will want to do it. Stepping on lawns and all that.
edit: That one sent me to the googles to find out where "close" was. Snap! There's a major sword manufacturer in my city. Their stuff's way out of my range but I wonder if they've got a showroom...
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Post by Deepbluedave on Dec 10, 2010 12:01:22 GMT
I prefer to think of all higher end swords as custom, even in a batch of 1000 these are all individually made, I dont think many makers (of an original sword) would say no if you wanted a piece made even if it where a copy of their so called "one off item", you can always change the grip color or another detail so small as to not really matter. Why should a maker lose a sale from something they may have taken weeks to document and produce just to make one. Everyone has different tastes but sometimes we can agree on an items rare beauty that we don't care if someone else has one too. This is how I look at Albion swords of which I have two and they hang right next to my Fable blades and Jody Samson swords.
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Dec 10, 2010 19:11:16 GMT
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this but here it goes.
sword makers are struggling to survive in this current economy which brings up two thought processes immediately: 1, they want to make money so they will take on pretty much any job, and 2 they have to protect what is theirs and keep their product distinct from others so people who want a sword like they make will come to them instead of the competition.
of these two thoughts I have been finding #2 to be more true and reliable than #1. as just one example of this, I love the look of the Albion Yeoman sword but I'm not so much of an Albion fan. I am a fan of ATrim swords and I even get to speak personally with Gus pretty regularly. I haven't given up trying to get Gus to make me a really wide type XIV but I have given up for a round or three. in short, he has made it quite clear that he will not copy the work of another sword maker (can't blame him there) and he doesn't want to make anything that can even be considered too close to what another maker makes, especially Albion. I have also picked up hints that there are many other makers that feel the same way, almost like a code of honor. I can understand this. surely there will be the odd maker here and there who will do it and they can probably get away with it with minimal fuss if they care to. but I think we have to remember that these swords are only BASED off of antiques and in most cases not direct copies. every maker has his own way of doing things and solving the problems that come up in sword design this inevitably leads to each sword being distinct in style and shape to each maker and if maker A suddenly starts producing swords with all the characteristics of maker B's work then B could actually have a leg to stand on in a legal fight. also there's more than one way to skin a cat and the battle that ensues need not be in the court room. SFI has been a battle ground of just this type in the past. Honor, and respect amongst our higher end production companies and custom smiths is a good thing for all of us.
you can always ask, but be prepared to be told either "no", or "yes, but different"
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Post by Deepbluedave on Dec 10, 2010 19:22:19 GMT
Well said Tom, I would not ask Ablion to make me a Fable Blade, neither would I ask Fable Blades to make me an Albion.
As how they make em is part of their style.
Adtharp
I have seen a sword very similar to a "Svante" Modeled after the original 15th century sword made by deltin I think, though not as refined as Albions. But if it is the original you love they come up for sale quite regular for about 2/3 of original price.
Edit Yep Kult of Athena do a Svante Clone by deltin
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2010 9:13:12 GMT
In the world of free trade, it's extremely difficult to patent the way steel is fabricated. In the same vein, you can't patent the way a house is constructed. There's only so many ways you can nail wood together. That's why companies "borrow" plans off each other all the time But if you come up with a unique PROCESS for fabricating steel, then exclusive rights may be obtainable. It's entirely up to the patent office. It's a different matter, however, when it comes to trademarks and brands. A Lord of the Rings "Halfling Sword," for example, might be branded by the studio, in which case legal reproduction would be allowable only through permission or licensing. The truth is, unless an item is integral to the image of a company, this rarely occurs. A studio may be willing to brand a name or an entire movie, but the branding of every item in that movie is cost prohibitive.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Dec 14, 2010 19:07:26 GMT
It comes down, I think, to this: If you want a sword to look a certain way, which happens to be the same as or very similar to, one that is already being made by a co./maker, you have these options: buy it from that co./maker, modify the design slightly and have another co./maker do it for you and accept the difference, or make it yourself.
The first and third options are entirely up to you.
The second, depends on whether the other maker is willing to do what is basically a knockoff of another maker's sword, and on how much you're willing to change the sword up to the point where you yourself would consider it an entirely different sword. Allow me to use the Discerner as an example. Let's say you ring up a bladesmith, tell him you want him to make you one of those. They say fine, but you'll have to change the design. You change the blade to an entirely straight-edged design, without the flare; but they say that's not enough of a change, and suggest... oh, maybe change the guard to a curved bar rather than straight, and make it a fish-tail rather than a rounded pommel. At that point, even if you kept it the same colours and grip material, it's going to be a very different sword-- but it's not really going to look that much like the Discerner.
On the other hand, you can whistle up whomever, tell them 'hey I want a single-handed European sword, round pommel, square-bar guard over a wire grip, slightly flared blade with a nice fuller, about yea long and yea size', and they'll turn out something for you that'll probably be pretty much what you wanted. If it's not quite what you want, either you can fiddle with it yourself-- gild or blue the fittings, make a sheath, whatever-- or send it back.
I've actually been thinking about having a Wheel of Time-style heron-mark blade made by someone. The way I would present it would be something like 'hey I'd like you to make me something like a katana, with a fuller along the top, but with an European-style double-loop guard with quillions, and a round pommel'. It wouldn't turn out like either Valiant's, John Lundemo's, or even Windlass's blade-- but it'd be pretty much what is described in the books, and it'd be my own unique sword.
So ultimately what it comes down to is, how close do you want this sword to be to the original? And how close is the maker willing to come to the original? How much do you want this sword to be just like someone else's creation that you admire, and how much do you want it to have your own touch? It's all in finding a balance there...
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Dec 14, 2010 19:38:08 GMT
Just to interject, that sounds like a really cool looking little blade. As for the discussion, I'll admit I've been following it rather faithfully since this hits a little close to home; one of my sword designs for a novel I'm writing was inspired by a Jody Sampson design while another looks almost identical (except for the straight blade), yet I'd never seen it before visiting Jody's gallery by chance and basing it on an entirely different source.
Oh! Aran, about the Warder; speak to Brendan Olszowy of Fable Blades if you're interested. I contacted him awhile back about the same sword (that is, improving on the Windlass version) and he's more than willing to work on it; he even has some interesting ideas of his own for the sword.
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. I wish you well in your endeavours and as I said yes it's fine just change some things around.
. But, after watching the How It's Made on Albion swords, I don't know if I could justify spending $3500 on a stock removal blade.....
