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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2007 19:53:48 GMT
I will try to make this point. Yes, I will admit, yes I was hot. For this I humbly apologize. But I will not apologize on this fact; yes Gen 2 has had some good reviews and some bad. That I can take. What I can not take is when it is bad everyone wants to throw it off as our recent temper problem. That was when we had several from the Black Prince and Lucerne's, that has been solved. Yes from time to time there may be a few and that is all we have had is just a few. But the post I see is that it is not solved. I do not know why the Scottish slipped through but that is one. No it should not have been but that is localized but a person would not see so from the post.
Here is what still upsets me. I have stressed it several times yesterday but the point is still lost so let me try to explain more. Hanwei and Windlass also has some issues even localized ones in temper. No no batch in some time but local. Ok? Where is the ranting. The I do not know if I can trust .... But, that is the post I see on Gen 2. Not just this once but in other times as well.
Remember I did own up to some issues. I did accept responsibility and stood behind it. Some how that has been lost by some people's post.
But, still no out cry for justice for Hanwei items or Windlass. Have they stood up? Owned up?
Now, lastly.. Yes there are people here who know how to and have been trained to cut. There have been times I have taken back a sword that there was no temper issue, replaced or fixed it when they made a bad cut. Remember we have owned up to our mistakes, but when someone how makes a bad cut (and remember they do not know until properly trained that they have made a bad cut) wants to blame it on the temper issue which has mostly gone away. We can not afford to keep doing that. Our swords are fine. Yes there will be from time to time issues on 1 or 2 items, not models. Just as there are with others manufacturers. That is the human element. If we could afford the big oven that would help. But we can not. And I am sorry to me doing them one at a time as they did in days of old, is more appealing to me.
I a wrong way I was asking (or demanding) justice as well. Why all the bad post on Gen 2's I understand criticism, I take it, but when there is no criticism on other swords just "well this happened and I am not happy with it" it is taken at that and there is no "well what is .... going to do about it. But you see, when it happens to Gen 2, then the post are there and also the post well my trust in Gen 2 is wavering. Where is the wavering trust on the others.
Please go back and look. I have not seen it, but I see it on Gen 2. That bothers me. I can take critique and criticism. I have here for sometime and have taken allot of it into account and have stated what we are doing to correct it. But, I guess some have forgotten that as well.
I hope this helps...again I apologize for the last post, I had just got back from a long drive when I discovered this and yes, should have waited but I had several emails and it seemed people were thinking I was ignoring it, when I was not here. Gone for a week.
But, Generation 2 to me is remember, my baby....
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Post by rammstein on Sept 5, 2007 20:05:56 GMT
Why? Because we hold you to a higher standard.
That's meant as a compliment.
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Post by YlliwCir on Sept 5, 2007 20:13:15 GMT
Good to see you, Clyde. It is true what Rammy says altough it may be unfair. Still you have earned that reputation. I sometimes get a little pissed myself and I understand the frustration. As to why no comments on the other brands mentioned. Hell, brother, I like your stuff so I don't buy theirs.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2007 20:58:05 GMT
Clyde, first of all, its great to see you posting again today, as your participation has always been (and hopefully always will be) one of the greatest aspects of the SBG forum. as far as gen2 taking more heat than it deserves with regards to recent tempering issues, i can completely understand where you are comming from, as it seems like lately everyone and their mother who has ordered / is considering a gen2 has asked "but what about the tempering... will mine be a good one?" remember though, that while this does end up blowing out of proportion the problem (which i am completely sure is limited to a small number of swords and is / has been addressed properly ) it is also simply a natural responce of customers who know that you, Clyde, are listening. as has been mentioned before, i am sure that this whole tempering thing will, in time, become a forgotten blip in gen2's reputation. and as for it seeming like gen2 gets more harsh criticism on this forum for tempering than others like windlass / hanwei get for issues specific to their company i would just like to suggest that, in the case of hanwei, the pommel designs for their western swords are so poor that that they border on comical, thus many comments on this issue were jokes, rather than serious complaints . nothing for them to be proud of though. and with windlass, i think we all know that windlass swords look nice and such, but when we buy them we expect that they may have some structural integrity issues when they are put into use (like cross-guards getting slightly loose or whatever). so again, the only conclusion to be drawn from all this is that we have higher standards for gen2's durability than we do for other sub$300 sword makers. and while this may be frustrating at times... it really is a compliment. keep up the good work Clyde!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2007 21:15:20 GMT
Clyde, first of all, its great to see you posting again today, as your participation has always been (and hopefully always will be) one of the greatest aspects of the SBG forum. as far as gen2 taking more heat than it deserves with regards to recent tempering issues, i can completely understand where you are comming from, as it seems like lately everyone and their mother who has ordered / is considering a gen2 has asked "but what about the tempering... will mine be a good one?" remember though, that while this does end up blowing out of proportion the problem (which i am completely sure is limited to a small number of swords and is / has been addressed properly ) it is also simply a natural responce of customers who know that you, Clyde, are listening. as has been mentioned before, i am sure that this whole tempering thing will, in time, become a forgotten blip in gen2's reputation. and as for it seeming like gen2 gets more harsh criticism on this forum for tempering than others like windlass / hanwei get for issues specific to their company i would just like to suggest that, in the case of hanwei, the pommel designs for their western swords are so poor that that they border on comical, thus many comments on this issue were jokes, rather than serious complaints . nothing for them to be proud of though. and with windlass, i think we all know that windlass swords look nice and such, but when we buy them we expect that they may have some structural integrity issues when they are put into use (like cross-guards getting slightly loose or whatever). so again, the only conclusion to be drawn from all this is that we have higher standards for gen2's durability than we do for other sub$300 sword makers. and while this may be frustrating at times... it really is a compliment. keep up the good work Clyde! Thank you David that means allot. It did look like we had more criticism and so I took it the wrong way. But glad you see it from my perspective. I will endeavor to keep to also see it as people here are trying to make it better?
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Post by septofclansinclair on Sept 5, 2007 22:23:38 GMT
Hey Clyde - I posted this on a different thread and wanted to make sure you saw it, as another show of support.
Clyde - I am relieved to still see you here.
I think that the main reason for the lack out outcry when a Windlass or Hanwei fails is simply this - no one is surprised when they do. For most of us, we think, "Well, what did I expect? It's an entry-level sword. It's bound to not stand up to punishment."
But with a Gen2... well, they are consistently seen as the top-of-the-line, at least when it comes to our price range. Paul's crazy tests (as inadvisable as they may have been) proved to us all that Gen2 made powerful weapons. Everybody was - and mostly still are - very excited by that. I don't remember who said it, but another manufacturer on this forum stated that as far as quality goes, Gen2 could stand up to any sword 2-3 times the price. And it's true!
Perhaps what made the big "hue and cry" was simply fear - fear that the favored manufacturer of SBG was losing its "edge" (no pun intended). And Clyde did admit to some problems there. But now everyone is jumping at shadows. The intense emotional responses are a result of us worrying that the quality we have come to expect was slipping.
I think that everyone agrees that Brenno got a bad sword. It happens. Every manufacturer makes a few lemons. But Clyde and Gen2 not only work hard to bring top of the line weapons to us, but Clyde puts his rep and pride on the line here to get feedback. Who else does that? It's a rare trait. I for one have at least 3 more Gen2's on my wish list, and I'll acquire them soon. Why? Because I've come to trust Clyde and his forge. My Gen2 Celtic Anthro is a savage little sword, and my Gen2 Irish Bastard feels like an extension of my arm. I can hardly wait to get the next one. And if it's a lemon -hey! it happens. I'm sure that Clyde's customer service will take care of it, and I'll get another one. I can have patience. None of this is meant as criticism of Brenno, BTW, but his experience seems to be a rarity.
So thanks for coming back, Clyde. I hope you stick around, and I hope that more Gen2 fans start encouraging you. You have more fans here than not.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2007 1:07:24 GMT
Clyde glad your still around. I just wanted you to know that the main reason I just purchased a Generation 2 Norman Medieval from Arms of Valor, was because you are willing to stand up here in this forum and defend your product. That is very admirable. You are here time and time again for us to listen and help with the few problems that arise. Because of this I believe Generation 2 will be my #1 choice from now on.
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 6, 2007 1:12:59 GMT
I, too, am very glad to see Mr. Hollis is back with us. I was very much afraid of what I felt was becoming the new direction of this forum, internal strife splitting us apart is never a good thing.
I'm still eying several Gen2 swords, and as soon as I have the money and the storage space (this is the largest bedroom I've ever had, and it's getting smaller every day) I'll be snatching them all up.
Thanks for sticking with us, Mr. Hollis.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2007 1:45:52 GMT
Shootermike has done several reviews on hanwei swords that have been far more critical than ANYTHING ever posted about Gen2. Most of them related to tang/pommel issues. I, for one, refuse to even chance a purchase of a european sword from them, and there were a good few that I was eyeing.
Windlass, they've always had larger gaps between the fittings than is nice. Half of the ones I've handled rattle. They're pretty decent blades - probably better finished and put together than Hanwei - but the first time I handled one of their longer swords and I felt the whippiness... the whole blade just seemed weak to me.
I won't buy a windlass either - maybe their 15th century longsword but that's it. I don't trust them. When i drill or cut or anything, I move quickly - in the german school the intention is to alternately strike openings on opposite sides of the body - i need a sword that won't flop around like macaroni when I do this.
When it came down to it, even though I knew of the quote-unquote 'temper problem', I ordered a Gen2 anyway. Yes it didn't come perfect, but thanks to Clyde and Shootermike we were able to even out the temper a bit and it seems better now. I'm pretty positive it's not just a placebo effect either. The blade rings where it did not ring before.
I think what I'm saying is that I, and most others, still loved Gen2. And I was seriously miffed by the very hot reaction Clyde made. He wants to know why we don't demand justice from other companies? Cuz it'd be a waste of time, effort, and probably money also. Hanwei and Windlass are faceless corporate entities that churn out swords to make money and don't give a damn if people get a bad one. I seriously doubt that anything productive would come of it - maybe shootermike should give a call to Hanwei regarding his multiple failures of pretty much every hanwei sword he has... I don't know.
The fact of the matter is, Clyde, that YOU came to these forums in person, and told us, pretty much to our faces, that if we had problems that we could come to you to sort them out. I don't think anyone here has ever said "Hey clyde it's all your fault fix it". I get the very distinct tone of 'that wasn't what I expected, is this the way it's supposed to be? did I screw up? Or is the sword faulty in some way', and being the person you are, Clyde, you've offered to help them.
I'm personally disappointed that now, after you come to the forums and say you'll do something, that now you're so angry that we're trying to hold you to your commitment.
If nothing else - remember your products have improved from very good to excellent.
And no, I wasn't sarcastic earlier. I may drop in from time to time, but I meant what I said: The Sub $300 market is dead to me. I will from here on out spend my money elsewhere for my european swords.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2007 2:49:13 GMT
I'm kinda new to some of this and I had only heard of Gen2 about 2 or 3 months ago. In that time I have taken note of a reputation of consistant quality. I had never heard of the Temper problem" until I joined this forum a few days ago but it didn't daunt me at all. I only have 1 Gen2 currently in my collection (River Witham Viking) but it is the pride of my collection. It is the most expensive sword I have ever bought and while you'd think I'd start cheap it is also the first one I have trusted to try cutting with (I'm not trained in anything but machette-to-bush). I plan on buying more Gen2 as soon as my budget allows (NLT Oct) and they are the first swords I refer any friends to that ask me whats good.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2007 4:13:32 GMT
Clyde, I can understand being defensive about something you are passionate about. That is reassuring. It shows us that you will pay attention and do whatever you can to perfect your products. Sept hit the nail on the head when he said that a Gen2 sword failure is almost like a betrayal, because everyone here knows you can trust a Gen2 sword. In the same vein, the temper issue, however minor it was, sent up a panic because we trust these swords. If Hanwei had a temper issue, most of us would not be too suprised, and the same with WIndlass quality control. This should show you that we buyers hold Gen2 to a higher standard. Thus, we will give feedback, positive or negative, accordingly. Take this as a compliment, though. If we didn't buy the swords, we wouldn't care about the quality, and if we didn't care about the quality, we wouldn't give feedback. For most of us, Gen2 is the medieval sword maker, period, paragraph.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2007 7:34:01 GMT
Clyde, I have said it before, it is good to see you active in the forum. Seeing you personally try to resolve issues gives me a lot of confidence that at the end of every transaction, I will get satisfaction.
My feelings on this issue of costumer service on not limited to Gen 2. I purchase a lot of armor and weapons from a lot of different merchants and craftsmen and in cases were I received good costumer service I reported so. Take for example the Gauntlets I bought from Ascroft/Baker. They needed some adjustment, which they did do. Also consider the recent bow the broke from woodbows.com. The warranty was honored after more then a year had passed. I have also had experiences with merchants where my emails where not answered. So I have seen the highs and the lows and I give credit where credit is due.
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