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Post by Freebooter on Nov 25, 2010 13:55:54 GMT
Hello all, I did not know where to go or to whom to adress my question. I am on a quest to find out what happened to the thousands of U.S. Cavalry sabres used in the Civil War and postwar years. I am speaking of the U.S. 1840 Hvy Cav Sabres and U.S.1860 Cavalry Sabres that were in the U.S. Military and warehouses frm the 1840s, Civil War, and up to 1902 when the Cavalry sabre was changed. When the Civil War was over the U.S. had around 3 Million men in uniform, the Confederates around 1 million (scattered all over Confederacy). Thousands of these were cavalrymen, not to mention the cavalrymen of the post war years. The U.S. of course had military warehouses and all for these and other weapons. When the U.S. adapted the U.S. Model 1902 Cavalry Sabre, what did they do with all the thousands of their 1840 Heavy Cavalry Sabres and 1860 Light Cav sabres they had in military warehouses? I know a small amount were procured by Hollywood agents for the movie industry. All those old Cavalry movies from the '30s, '40s, '50s, etc., had to have been using originals. Repros had not come out at that time I don't think. And also, I am sure thousands were sold to other countries as surplus when the U.S. adapted the 1902 Cavalry sabre. How can you find out what countries were the older cavalry sabres sold to? This is a curiosity of mine and I have gotten so curious about what happened to all our (U.S.) cavalry sabres that I've determined to find out. Any help or info you can give me on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Freebooter Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2010 9:07:27 GMT
My understanding is that the vast majority of cannon, rifles, swords, bayonets, etc. were collected during the demobilization years and shipped by rail to the West Point, Fort Pitt and South Boston Foundries. There they were converted to steel for railways, ships, and the newly invented steel framed buildings. Only officers were permitted to keep their swords resulting in the rarity of regular calvary weapons. Demobilization in the South saw weapons shipped to the foundries at Rome and Atlanta. There was a massive demilitarization of the South that left very few authentic Confederate swords of any kind.
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Post by Freebooter on Nov 26, 2010 13:31:09 GMT
SAd. All that old stuff, just ruinded. I also read that after the war a lot of surplus was sold to South American countires and to some over sees, like Egypt, etc.
FB
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Post by Dave Kelly on Nov 27, 2010 3:50:12 GMT
The 1872 and 1902 were officer swords. The M1860 was the official enlisted saber until 1913.
There was a lot of sell off, and a lot of souvenirs went home. State arsenals also got their fill of allocations. There were plenty of swords thru the Spanish American War.
A lot of the depot 1860s were used in WWI to make bayonets and trench knives.
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Post by Freebooter on Nov 27, 2010 4:01:20 GMT
Wouldnt' it be neat to be able to go to Bannerman's and just buy whatever you wanted, cheap?!? Man! I just had a thought. I am going to find out who is over that sort of thing, state arsenals, etc, here in Alabama and see what I can find out.
FB
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Post by SPQR on Dec 2, 2010 16:44:33 GMT
I'm a bit late, but I do know that many many thousands were sold off as surplus, many ending up at Bannerman's Island. Many others had their hilts smelted off for the brass content and the blades scrapped.
During WW2 there were huge scrap drives and large numbers of old swords found their way into the smelters then, too. The army even turned some they still had on hand into substitute machetes for the war in the Pacific.
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Post by Freebooter on Dec 2, 2010 19:30:58 GMT
Hey SPQR,
I wish I had some documentation about the surplus being sold to other countries. Over at Sword Forum Inter., when I posted this same question, one of the moderators answere me in his usual smart or rude way. He basically said I did not know what I was talking about, was following a pipe dream, and without documentation I should not post such stuff that I am dreaming about. Naturally I came back and said it was no dream and I was no expert, I was merely curious as to what happened to all the thousands of swords made and imported into this country from 1840-1913 (1913 is when the army adapted the Patton straight bladed sabre and discontinued the old types).
I am about done with SFI. He has been very rude and hateful to me before. Once, three or four years ago, maybe longer, I had posted a post giving some ideas about how to carry your sword in the public without anyone knowing it. You know like to transport it on a public transportation, to walk a block or two to a friends house, etc.. That way no one would know what it was and be alarmed at someone toting a sword about. Man, he came back and said he "Trashed" my whole thread and basically accused me of promoting criminal behavior with swords, I was stupid to do it, etc, etc.. Several people had posted responses and liked what I was talking about and agreed with me and even spoke up for me. When I questioned him and it to another moderator and all he said I could not do that and threatened to ban me from SFI. I went several years without stepping foot over at SFI. I felt it was unjustified, unprofessional and was very insulting in his remarks. So now I am pretty much done with SFI.
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Post by paulrward on Feb 6, 2011 19:22:04 GMT
Dear Mr. Freebooter;
I feel nervous about being accused of hijacking this thread, but I feel a great deal of sympathy with your experience with a certain ' International Sword Forum '. I have come to the conclusion, based on my experience, that this ' ISF ' is in fact just a marketing tool for several retailers of foreign made swords. These individuals are desperate to create a public image that swords are not weapons, but are simply collector's items.
Like you, I have been involved for years with edged weapons, not as a collector or for display, but as an actual user of them as weapons. I asked a simple question about the Indian made reproductions of the British Pattern 1908 and 1912 sabers, and the moderator immediately developed a severe case of the Hot Spurts and sent me a vulgar, derogatory e-mail, and banned me from the forum for life. ( I would include the text of the e-mail, but it would violate the obscenity rules of this forum. )
To sum it up, it appears that the ' ISF ' will react with rudeness and a sort of Stalinistic censorship of anyone who in any way would imperil the marketing activities or the profits of it's moderators.
Which is surprising: Here is one forum that calls itself a Buyers Guide that allows free exchange of information, and another, which calls itself a Forum, that stifles free thought. This requires some meditation on my part.
Respectfully;
Paul R. Ward
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Post by Freebooter on Feb 6, 2011 19:31:13 GMT
I could just about guesse who that particular moderator is. He is a very insulting know it all, an ass hole, and a jerk and is in no way professional and has no idea how to talk to people. He is stuckon himself and his power he thinks he has over others. And they play favorites over there too. Some guys can post questions and talk about or say almost andything and nothing is said and some get their heads bit off and/or banned, etc.. I am done with them!
Freebooter
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Post by Dave Kelly on Feb 6, 2011 22:21:35 GMT
As an old soldier I'd like you to consider that getting your shorts in a knot because of some greivence with another place is something you'd be better off handling with a very curt, " I haven't had very satisfactory experiences with X". The sword community is very small, and we live in a little glass house where many folks read in all the sites. All sites are not equal. But maybe it's politically wiser not to burn your bridges: you might want to cross them again some day.  I would be interested if you find out anything about the disposition of QM stocks. I'd imagine if you got an answer at all it would probably refer you to a research library where you could sift thru annual reports for dispositions. Also try the Springfield Arsenal Museum. Cheers, Dave Kelly |
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Post by paulrward on Feb 8, 2011 3:23:41 GMT
Messrs. Kelly and Freebooter;
Agreed. Let us not hijack the thread.
As to the Model 1860s, let us return to first principles. An 1860 saber was made of fairly decent steel, a brass guard, and a wood and leather grip with a brass wire wrapping.
If you buy them by the pound, after you have saturated the 1870s-1900s GAR market , and have sold a few thousand to disreputable Central American Dictators, you have a large pile of leftover sabers ( the really beat up ones, with damaged hilts, nicked blades, and tattered grips, and, usually, no scabbards.
So you hire a few minimum-wage types to tear them down. Sell the Brass ( the most valuable part, for pennies a pound. Sell the blades to knife makers or just steel scrappers ( you need to have a little steel in the crucible when you are making steel, it speeds the process ). And then just burn the wood and leather grips in the warehouse furnace.
And now you know how Bannerman was able to finance the construction of his castle.
Questions ?
Respectfully;
Paul R. Ward
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Post by Freebooter on Feb 8, 2011 13:55:12 GMT
Very interesting. I would loved to have been able to go to Bannerman's back when he was in business!!
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