Sébastien
Senior Forumite
Retired Moderator
Posts: 2,967
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Post by Sébastien on Nov 2, 2010 4:03:58 GMT
Cool review man, I really like your pics and I really want your blades now If I could, I'd give you karma, but for now, congratulations for having such a fine product for your money and a big thank you for bringing us this review (Damm shame that blade is out of stock )
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Post by thepepperskull on Dec 3, 2010 10:12:20 GMT
Great pictorial review!
And thanks for the mention in your first post!If it would be okay with you, I'll post for you about the historical accuracy of this blade set.
Now, contrary to my previous review, I say now, after a more in-depth research period, I have found this Espada Y Daga set to be more historically accurate than I had once thought. Here is my new review of its historical accuracy:
ORIGIN AND NOMENCLATURE:
IMPORTANT NOTE: This Espada Y Daga set is made in Luzon (Northern Phillippines), Baguio to be exact. They make a lot of reproductions there, but KC's forges make the most historically accurate. The rest are of the same performance quality of KC's, but not as well-researched as KC's.
The design is inspired by the Visayan region's (Central Phillippines) blades, however. This would technicaly make KC's espada Y daga set a reproduction, as it is made in an area the blade is not native to.
This blade set, in particular, is a simplified version of the Illongo Taribung (alternatively spelled "talibong", "Talibung", or "Talibon" but all are accepted spellings, which I find ironic... it almost sounds like "Taliban", but traditoinally the Taribung has been a weapon of tribes/people who were Chritistian). The region to which this blade is a replica of refers to it as a "Talibong" more specifically.
The talibong in this rendition is found in places like Aklan, Ilo Ilo, and negros Occidental. This one in particular is a replica of one from Negros Occidental I believe (The locals and their local dialect are called "Illongo", so this is why I refer to it as a replica of an Illgongo Talibong).
I once referred to this as a 'pinuti', but this is a term coming from Cebu. Since this is an Illongo and not a Cebuano blade, I thought I should clarify and name this a Talibong replica, not a Pinuti replica.
BLADE:
The double bevel is less traditional, as visayan blades are usually single-beveled with a chisel grind for just right or just left hand use. Modern panday (smiths) are changing this, however, and making Talibong with double beveled blade geometries. I'd say they've been doing this in the region since 2005. Possibly before then. Until then, however, Traditional blade geometry was defined as only left-handed or right-handed single bevel.
The blade is semi-accurate in shape. Talibong are traditionally more curved, and only straighten out in shape if the blade length exceeds 25 inches due to difficulties retaining curvature in the forging and tempering process. this length of blade for a one-handed sword is excessive, however. The back edge is not sharpened on this one. On antiques I have seem sharpened and unsharpened back edges, so I'd say this is accurate.
The thickness of this blade in particular is similar to that of a katana. At least mine is. staring at 1/4th of an inch an tapering to the 1/8th near the tip. This can be said of antiques and modern made blades from the actual region as well. Some older antiques will be as thick as 3/4ths of an inch at the base believe it or not, but that was an extreme case.
HANDLE:
This particular handle style is in the traditional hexagonal shape and the pommel is shaped to resemble a flower. Many do make the mistake of thinking that it is made to represent the Bakunawa (or dragon). There is a different pommel shape to represent the dragon, however. The pin to secure the blade is a modern addition to the sword, but one that is done now in authentic blades to the region. The guard is small, but since it is metal it indicates a post-spanish colonial influence. Often times Talibong like this would have thick round wooden discs, sometimes shod with iron or silver and sometimes not, depending on the wealth of whoever it is being made for, before the spaniards arrived. Their influence gave way to these simple metal guards.
I hope this historical overview helped you appreciate this blade more! It's great and I still have mine!
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Post by thepepperskull on Dec 3, 2010 10:46:18 GMT
Oh, and PS: I referred in that historical overview that they still make the real thing in the place of origin, Negros Occidental. I forgot to post pics so you guys could compare for yourselves though! Well, here ya go! Here's a pic of an authentic (as in locally made from the region of exact origin) modern-made Talibong from Negros Occidental. I've got one on order. The Pandays who make this particular one are associated with Grand Master Nene Tortal and his family's Eskrima style, Dekiti Tirsia Siradas. A very respected style, albeit involved in a lot of controversy. Here's another one made by the same people (In the middle), with antique versions to compare. I like how it simplifies the design of the antique ones, but does not try to replicate it. The modern Illongo panday really strives for quality in performance and their blades got it where it counts (There's also something to beautiful about its simplicity, no?): and a pic of that same talibong by itself. Note the beautiful polished Buffalo ('Carabao') horn handle: This one in particular has an oval grip instead of the hexagonal grip. The sheathes are traditionally made a lot thicker because it was used in the non-blade hand as a secondary weapon to parry the opponent's blade. It is made of Tays wood, which is apparently very very strong. Mine will not come until april but I will have a review for you guys by then! Oh, and here's a video of the Dekiti Tirsia Siradas camp training: Handling the blade at the beginning is Nene Tortal's son, Master Jerson Tortal, Jr. The older Gentleman handling the blade in the '12 blade strikes' demonstration is GM Nene Tortal (Otherwise known as Jerson Tortal Sr.) It's interesting to note how different they move. Some feel that Master Jerson Tortal Jr is too flashy, others argue that he uses feints and fake-outs in rapid succession to confuse and thus easily injure his opponent. Nene is more direct and to the point. He moves slowly in this video because it's footage from a teaching demonstration, but you can search youtube and see him tossing around much younger guys for his disarm demonstrations. It's inspiring to see a man his age doing that so well. The style in general is just great. The footwork is simple and thus not too complicated, the 12 strikes are easy to learn and are more guidelines than anything else, so the style itself is flexible to adaptation. And when you wanna get into meatier, more substantial techniques, Nene's got great counters for strikes, and counters to those counters, and then disarms for THOSE counters. A backup plan for a backup plan for a backup plan, if you will
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Post by Tendrax on Dec 3, 2010 11:31:24 GMT
Wow, never seen these blades before, but I really like them! Seems like it'd be the perfect choice for the zombie apocalypse. Nice chopping type sword for head removal, and a survival blade in one quick to grab package. Lol. I think I need to pick one of these up!
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Sébastien
Senior Forumite
Retired Moderator
Posts: 2,967
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Post by Sébastien on Dec 3, 2010 17:24:18 GMT
Yo Pepperskull, welcome to the new forum
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Post by thepepperskull on Dec 4, 2010 6:10:05 GMT
Merci, Sebastien!
It's been a while! I miss SBG.
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Post by thepepperskull on Dec 4, 2010 6:22:18 GMT
Actually this is exactly what this is for. Philippine bolos have culturally been used for battle and jungle survival/bushcraft. They're weighted a bit more blade-foreward so that each limb cut actually cut off the limb.
We tend to take the term 'Disarm' too literally, I guess. :lol:
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Post by William Swiger on Mar 18, 2011 10:53:57 GMT
Man - had to order the Kris Cutlery Espada y Daga from KOA after this thread. Like I need more sharpies for my collection Wanted something different from the katana and european ones I have.
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Post by frankthebunny on Mar 18, 2011 17:32:16 GMT
in a lot of my mma training the premise was the best way to avoid damage in a fight was to quickly take away the opponents weapons. this meant their limbs more than any sword or stick they might have been using. if you are able to focus a strike and destroy their nerves or joints, they could no longer hold a weapon and thus the threat is gone. Indonesian and Malaysian styles are particularly vicious on the nerves. if you ever had someone hit you in a certain spot on your arm or leg and felt that twinge of electricity, then you know what I mean.....only x10! nerve strikes with knuckles or elbows , knee strikes to the opponents fists or feet, very brutal but an extremely efficient way of taking away weapons. why mess around and chance breaking your bones trying to knock someone out with strikes to the head when you can target much more vulnerable areas? especially ones they are not expecting you to target, actually they are freely offering them to you
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Mar 19, 2011 4:08:17 GMT
It's all a matter of focus.
I'm always amazed when I read these reviews. I'm amazed that I'm such an idiot that I keep forgetting about FMA and swordplay. My main focus is on Europe (and then mostly on Britain, and then mostly on Scotland), and I have a passing knowledge of Japanese and Chinese swords.
Somehow I always forget about the Philippine Islands, and then I feel like an idiot. The espada y daga was one of the first things that looked really cool to me when I was first browsing KOA, and the set still looks mighty fine to me. It's almost a retro tactical kind of look, wicked fast little cutters. Hitting all the same buttons as a kukri---I understand they're different critters, but they hit the same buttons.
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