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Post by SwordFan on Nov 6, 2010 3:13:25 GMT
I agree with Midori and Ryan and feel that the first point of contact should be the seller to resolve any issues . Iv done business with KOA now for almost 4 years ,spent thousands of dollars and have found them to always be helpful and very friendly so much so that I only buy from them as an international buyer .
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Nov 6, 2010 3:21:54 GMT
This issue came up on another forum and I put forth my thoughts there... I'll sum up here. While Ryan's above post does come off as pretty rough... he's a bit ticked, and I can understand why. In this case an item was shipped to one guy in Germany... who got the item and decided it was good enough to go ahead and ship it on to another guy in Denmark. The existence of a third party handling and then shipping the sword means that KoA is not liable for the sword at that point. They have a generous return/exchange policy in place... but come on. It has to function within reason. The sword being further damaged at its final home is even more of an issue. What SHOULD have happened is the item, if defective, should have been found to be so when it made its first stop in Germany. Then it could have been returned and dealt with then and there. Having NOT be returned to where KoA shipped it to... but instead shipped on to another... means it is NOT KoA's fault. In my opinion... Ryan and KoA have no obligation to do anything in regards to this sword... as once it was sent on from its shipped destination it was no longer in the original chain of custody. To expect them to be accountable at this point is, to me, expressing a sense of entitlement that is beyond unrealistic. Secondly... I strongly agree with Midori on that... BEFORE people post scathing reviews of products and/or vendors... the should make every effort with the vendor they bought from to resolve the situation... and only AFTER everything is said and done... THEN post an informative review detailing the entire process and the result. Doing so BEFORE everything is said and done causes people to jump to conclusions and gives out incomplete info before everything is resolved... and helps no one and only serves to harm the community as a whole. I have received many, MANY defective blades over the past few years... but I wait until I've contacted the vendor and done everything I can to resolve the issue before posting on any forums. Often, when all is said and done, I am taken care of and everyone is happy. Which brings me to another point... It is VERY important when ordering swords online that, once the sword arrives you inspect ASAP. If there are issues with it you should learn about them immediately... and then contact your vendor and resolve the issue. You should not wait weeks then check it out... and you should not use the item or mess with it more then is needed to inspect it before making sure it meets your standards. If you wait to long or you mess with it before learning of an issue... it is THAT much harder for vendors to make a case to return the sword to the manufactures... and then if they do replace it they might be doing so out of their own pockets. What people don't realize is that when vendors do that... sure its great that they stand behind their products... but they are LOSING MONEY! Since people are in business MAKE money... losing money means they will not stay in business for long. And THAT... hurts ALL of us my friends. 1. Check items ASAP upon receipt of said items... and notify the selling vendors ASAP if an issue is found. 2. Don't mess with items that you want to return, it makes it hard for vendors to exchange/refund them. 3. Wait until the entire process is complete before posting reviews of the items/vendors... so that the whole story can be told. If these 3 things are done it will be better for buyers and sellers alike, I promise you.
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ghost
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Post by ghost on Nov 6, 2010 3:31:17 GMT
I feel your pain garde...but consider blaming the scrapes and dings on the long distance shipping or those customs guys having some jolly old fun...
The wrap w/o hishigami and a shimming are a nightmare (I nearly threw up) and should be blamed on Hanwei. It is very reasonable for KoA to have missed these things hidden under the surface. The wrap probably looked tight until it got loosened up a bit by customs having a swing or 10.
I have purchased 4-5 times from KoA and I can attest that Ryan personally answers my emails and questions within a day. My stuff gets shipped out the next day and I have yet to receive any defective blades. I will continue to buy from him because of his generous return policy and competitive pricing. Overall, my own experience was quite good though I did receive a scabbard with literally a tablespoon of sand it?!?!?
In the future, pictures should be taken upon opening the box so that no vendor/seller can contest how it really arrived.
I would expect KoA to replace it irregardless until you did a couple things wrong. 1. You used a hammer. 2. You accidently broke off the tip.
Katanas tips seem to chip easily enough though this could have just as easily been a terrible blade with bad heat treat.
I would side with garde on this one...the shimming / lack of hishigami are already there, and could only have come from the manufacturer as such. (KoA is a Hanwei dealer and must "deal" with the defects.) The dings on the saya could have been from anything...however if it did come straight out of the box like this and you took pictures with my camera...KoA should still be responsible as well for good shipping/ in transit period.
Email /Calling would have been more appropriate and even a personal push "I will be reviewing this product on SBG and be affiliating your company with it, so could you please replace this defective one?" would have been more reasonable at first.
In the future, try negotiating first. Then if $(%@# hits the fan, go all out :twisted:
When I read the original post it seemed quite normal Ryan, and I did not see any KoA slandering from the OP besides saying that he bought the sword from KOA and in a later post doubting that KoA would do anything. The immediate responses following it though are quite harsh...
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Nov 6, 2010 3:37:56 GMT
Even had that not happened, I would not consider KoA accountable for the sword. They are accountable only to the person they ship it to... once that person shipped it to another, creating an extra trip with someone else packing the item and another group of customs outside of KoA's original chain of custody, they are no longer liable for what happens to the item in my opinion.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2010 6:50:58 GMT
Ok, guys, here the thing.
Me living i Denmark, makes it NOGO to sent this thing back. So i wanned do a review, saying that this sword wasn't ok, the review was not, to go ballistic on KOA, but sorry to say, could be intubation like that.
The review is the product, of me being VERY disappointed, i never thought i could get anything back from KOA, cause i just don't think like that (alot of bad Karma in my life)
Well, just wanna add, this thing is being fixed and we are in dialog with KOA.
I never planed to hide anything or something like that, cause then i would never had wrote Johnny after the review, and i was sure KOA were on the forum.
The whole this would have been easyer if i was living in a more weapons friendly country, so i without any problem could ship the item back. but unfortunately i do not :-(
I have learned my lesson, to "fix" things before going public with it, and for THAT i will apologize to KOA.
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Post by chrisperoni on Nov 6, 2010 7:09:24 GMT
good on you gard to continue to post and explain what's up and clear the air.
I have to agree with Sean 100% on this one (seems I'm doing that a lot lately)
My experience with KOA/Ryan has been nothing short of professional and positive. He has always responded quickly and informatively to emails and was helpful in shipping out my order in the best way possible. I think it says a lot that he is still willing to help you out considering how things went down.
IMHO KOA did nothing wrong here and still is giving the chance to set it right...which to be totally honest is more than I would offer after everything that the sword went through.
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Post by GUEST on Nov 6, 2010 7:15:52 GMT
That about sums up my feelings on this particular incident, and it would appear that the story is more complicated than it first appeared.. After all is said and done, KoA's offered solution is more than fair, especially after facing comments such as: Which is in direct violation of rule 3 of the forum: When situations like this arise, its extremely important to stick to the facts and keep it cool. I've seen enough manufacturers and vendors get driven away from all the major sword forums because they feel like they are under attack and while I think that Ryan's response could have been delivered more tactfully, he raised some very valid points. Let's keep it nice and cool from here please.. (especially as the solution offered is exceptionally generous considering the circumstances). Thanks, - Admin
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kaiyo
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Post by kaiyo on Nov 6, 2010 8:09:45 GMT
also my comment on the situation, I think KOA derserves redemption (is that the right term ?), the things they mentioned are valid. Why is he/im not mad at Hanwei - cause we didn't know, we thought it was shipped directly from KOA. Why is Garde not mad at me ... even more valid, dont know how many people now think, what if he had a used Tori, replaced his one and shipped the old Tori These are the doubts that i now have to live with and makes me feel really bad, and thats why i want to fix things between us, and if garde figures out a way to ship back the sword, i will gladly pay for the shipping cost. Just like garde wrote im sure he doesn't wanted to be evil he was just pissed, think i would have done the same, although it maybe not the right way. I will explain the situation on the shipping, especially for you Sean (Shadowhowler), please dont write something like this unless you really know "... if defective, should have been found to be so when it made its first stop in Germany. Then it could have been returned and dealt with then and there... " like i wrote already YES you can blame me that i have not checked it properly, but even i WOULD HAVE noticed these flaws, im STILL NOT ABLE to return the sword, that apart from the shipping costs and the custom fees is a problem for us Europeans, i will explained it again and since i work for DHL i know very well what im talking about for me/us as a private person it is pretty much impossible, its against the shipping politics of the company, same for Fedex, UPS and other small shipping companies, also the shipping regulations for weapons to the states have been really tightened based on the 11th september... of course you can try to ship it anyway i hope the shipment gets trought without being x-rayed, but if not then the consequences will be: - shipment will be destroyed - you have to pay for that - lawsuit and maybe more... so i hope you understand this at last Sean :?: concluding to this situation, KOA proved to have a very good customers service , being very professional, and i can only recommend them.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Nov 6, 2010 9:03:08 GMT
Actually, I don't understand you Kaiyo... could be a language barrier issue. Are you saying that, since you 'would have noticed' these flaws that they were not present when you shipped the sword from Germany? If that is so then somehow they acquired the issue between leaving you and getting to the final destination. Or are you saying you 'would have noticed' the issues... but you did not notice them because you didn't inspect the sword, merely went ahead and shipped it? If the former... then its clearly not an issue for KoA to deal with because the sword was fine from their shipping to you... and it was on the extra trip the issue occurred. If the later then it was certainly a mistake to ship the sword without inspecting it first... since it is much easier to return a defective product from one trip rather then two. I'm really having trouble understanding what your trying to say, as the way you wrote above is chaotic at best. At any rate... the point is moot. Its not for me to tell you what to do or not do... or guess on what you did or did not do. The only point *I* was trying to make is that EVERYONE should make a point of being realistic in what they expect from vendors, and do their part to make the buyer/seller relationship work. That includes being sure to inspect upon arrival any item you have purchased and identify any issues at once before either using the item or sending it elsewhere... as after you have done either of those things its unfair and unrealistic to expect vendors to cover return costs from that point.
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kaiyo
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Post by kaiyo on Nov 6, 2010 9:29:27 GMT
well it seems to be the language barrier issue...
"...Or are you saying you 'would have noticed' the issues... but you did not notice them because you didn't inspect the sword, merely went ahead and shipped it? ..."
yes thats what im saying - and i wrote that,
but i didn*t know that you work as a Shipping Agent for KOA and shipped it personally to me, cause you saying it was def fine
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Post by Crimsoned on Nov 6, 2010 17:18:38 GMT
Ryan, that was a very interesting post and couldn't help but agree with you more on most of your points, while I was suspecting Kaiyo could have switched out the katana, or perhaps damaged it himself while he had his hands on the katana it would have not been fair to his reputation as there is no basis to make such accusations or assumptions. It was never mentioned that the item was drop shipped, in which case I have had experience with this in the past it's basically a luck of the draw. I know you guys (KOA) actually have your very own storage, and KOA handles the swords sold personally which is why I myself not being even related to this transaction was infuriated. How could KOA miss such a used sword? Now I see, it was because you guys never handled the sword Hanwei did.
Shame on me for not getting the full story and jumping the gun. Your offer is far more then fair under the circumstances, when most vendors would have said tough luck, deal with Hanwei. I really hope you don't take such a loss on the sale KOA.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Nov 7, 2010 0:24:35 GMT
Ah, that makes a lot more sense. I didn't see where you wrote that anywhere, I may have missed it, but now I follow you.
Uh... here again you have lost me... as I have NO idea what you mean by this. I never said anything about the swords condition one way or the other... and obviously I don't work for KoA, so that bit of sarcasm (I assume its sarcasm, hard to tell with text and language issues) is unnecessary and pointless.
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Nov 16, 2010 14:17:34 GMT
Why don't we just fix this right now and ship it directly to me!? I'll make sure you never see this (read "the sword") again...
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Post by I Frammenti Di Fede on Nov 18, 2010 6:25:03 GMT
I had a minor problem with Hanwei's QC as well, I also bought through KoA and they have great customer service imo. First, I recieved a Tori Elite with the jointed ito starting to come undone slightly... so I went to the store and exchanged it. I told them it's because the ito joint is starting to come apart slightly and I didn't want to have to replace the suede ito (as I love suede ito, and its pricey). It was cloudy outside that day and there wasn't really a decent light source in KoA's showroom so it turns out I exchanged my Tori Elite for another Tori Elite with a chip in the kissaki. So I got home with the second sword, ended up sticking it into some direct sunlight and "wow!" theres a chip plain as day. So 45 mins later (45 mins there and then 45mins back again) to KoA again, exchanged the Tori Elite for my 3rd Tori Elite (it was sunny that day btw) everything checked out and I couldn't be happier with it. I guess 3rd times the charm huh?
My problems were easier to be overlooked by QC and by a store clerk, but your Tori should have never left the factory if it did ship out like that. I'm sorry to hear thats what you got, as I really like my "final" Tori Elite lol.
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