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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2010 5:22:23 GMT
I inherited this sword from my uncle and I have taken it to and asked many people about this sword and no one seems to know anything. I have tried looking for others like it but none seem to have this same address and inscription. The inscription reads: E.A. Armstrong M'F'G. Co. 315 Wabash Ave. Chicago The entire blade is done up with engraving on both sides. One side says U.S. in the middle and the other side says E Pluribus Unum" Also the blade appears to be not ever sharpened, not sure why.... Any help would be greatly appreciated! I cant find anything!!! Thank you
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Post by Freebooter on Oct 26, 2010 6:46:09 GMT
Looks like a U.S. Army 1905 Cavalry sabre. Then in 1913 the Patton sword replaced it. Fb
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2010 10:06:42 GMT
What you have is a M1902 US Army officer's dress sabre. The same pattern is still used in today's Army as a dress sabre. I'm an avid antique collector of this pattern sword. Presently have 3 in my collection,but will be adding more for sure. All the one's I have pre-date 1918. I'll get a date for you on your M1902 and info on the retailer E.A. Armstrong soon. Looks to be in decent condition...congrats. cheers, Bill edit: E. (Edwin) A. Armstrong MFG Co. was in business from 1894-1915. They were retailer of M1902's for all officers, the blade's were probably German made. Many business's were retailer / vendors of these but only a few were actual makers. Springfield Armory was one of the few actual makers and considered one of better quality. One's with German silver guards and scabbards were on early models and also one's that have wooden or horn grips were early make's as well. After that they used nickle plated steel or brass for guards & scabbards and Bakelite (Early form of plastic) and painted steel for grips. here's a pic of the 3 I presently have: left to right - Springfield Armoury c.1903, Francis Bannerman -NY c.1910,and A. Schuman c.1917.
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Post by Freebooter on Oct 26, 2010 13:06:55 GMT
Hey William, Thanks for posting the correct date. I was thinking it was the 1905 pattern, but it is the 1902 pattern. I have never thought much about them, being a 1860 Lt Cav Sabre fan, but they do kind of grow on you. Later, FB
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2010 13:49:09 GMT
FB...The cavalry pattern you are thinking of is actually the M1906 US cavalry. It bears a very close resemblenace to the ACW 1860's models your fond of.
cheers,
Bill
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2010 23:05:37 GMT
You guys are incredible! I cant believe how many people I asked and no one had the answer, when all I had to do was ask you experts!
So it is a 1902? Also what would you guys guess a fair price for this sword would be? Im considering getting rid of it, and I really dont want to get ripped off, so if you guys could maybe shoot me a "ball park" figure that would be very helpful in aiding me to sell it... Anymore info would be greatly appreciated. Thank you guys so much!!!
Also, so it is real? right? I wouldnt think it would have that manufacturer id on it if it were a reproduction?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2010 1:07:57 GMT
Yes, it is a real vintage M1902 sabre. Again since it is marked with E.A. Armstrong that dates it between 1902 & 1915.
Depending on the overall condition, the maker/retailer mark and the overall market price can vary. You've got a nice one from the looks...if I were you I'd hang on to it for a while.
There's a lot of variations of the M1902 (makers/retailers, grip-guard components,etchings, presentation grades, etc) if you look at my avatar, it's of the rarest M1902 variation - a Philippine Constabulary. This is the Holy Grail of M1902's in my book and hope to obtain one in the future.
PM me if you want to talk more about pricing / value.
cheers,
Bill
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Post by MEversbergII on Oct 30, 2010 6:03:24 GMT
Bill, you have a beautiful collection there. I wonder though - if those are all the same kind of sabre for military issue, why do they look so different?
M.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2010 11:30:39 GMT
thanks...it's still growing ,just acquired another 1902 variant yesterday. The reason have differences is that they are from different makers /retailers. M1902's were widely produced over the years, especially during war time. This is another reason for my soft spot for them and so interested in collecting, the variations are limitless. Unlike the the cookie cutter reproduction market, antique sword's have a wealth of history, appeal and character, plus they are a great investment.
cheers,
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Post by Freebooter on Nov 7, 2010 23:45:11 GMT
Hello all, For those of you collecting 1902 Officers' sabres: I posted a new post on this forum, but thought I would post it here too since y'all are talking abt this type and Bill seems to collect them. But there is one in "High Calibre Gun and Pawn" store in Prattville, Alabama . The scabbard is somewhat rusty, from handling and improper care no doubt. The handlle is in good shape, and the blade is in mint condition. Beautiful sword. The owner, Danny, said he would take $170.00 for it. If I was in the market for those, I would jump on it. Just thought I would share this with y'all in case someone might be interested. Later, Freebooter
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Post by Spathologist on Nov 27, 2010 0:27:50 GMT
Hi, Bill!
I'd add just one small detail to your comprehensive explanation. Correspondence between the Ordnance Department and civilian militaria dealers in 1903 showed that the Springfield Armory was the only manufacturer of the M1902 through that year, and that none of the major dealers could spool up to produce the sabers in any number for several months after a need was confirmed. Production numbers for the Armory, which only produced them as needed, shows that manufacture did not slack off until 1905/06, so I would posit that civilian firms did not produce M1902s in any significant number until after that date. There is also a dearth of presentation M1902s before those years.
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Post by Freebooter on Nov 27, 2010 0:47:25 GMT
I have always wondered what happened to the thousands of 1840 Hvy Cav sabres and 1860 Lt cavalry sabres in the U.S. arsenals after the civil War and around the turn of the century when the U.S. discontinued use of the 1860 model..
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Post by Spathologist on Nov 27, 2010 0:55:21 GMT
The US didn't discontinue use of the M1860 pattern until adopting the "Patton" in 1913. As to what happened...many were sold as scrap or turned into knives during WWII, many were attritted during normal use, some were left to rust in attics and barns, some may still sit in State arsenals.
But I don't think they are particularly rare. On any day you can find hundreds for sale with a Google search, and as late as the 1920s Bannerman was offering them 100 for $100, with special pricing on lots over 1000.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2010 2:16:18 GMT
thanks there and I recognize you from the USMF....welcome to SBG. Good to have other vintage collectors (especially with your expertise) here.
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Post by Spathologist on Dec 11, 2010 18:11:30 GMT
That's what I love and hate about M1902s...just when you see a pattern that you think means something....
1903presentation1.JPG[/attachment]1903presentation2.JPG[/attachment]
So...back I went to my archive to dredge up the primary documents I had based my above post on, and it seems that, according to a memo to the Springfield Armory from Ames (fourth line from the bottom), Allien and Ridabock did import some sabers in the 1902/03 period...
12-11-2010 12;22;54 PM.jpg[/attachment]
And a reply from Ridabock says that with a 4-month lead time, they could deliver all the sabers the Army could want...indicating they already have a supplier.
12-11-2010 12;23;22 PM.jpg[/attachment]
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