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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2007 0:56:19 GMT
Hello all, especially sabre lovers, Below is a review, or comparison, of an original Civil War 1860 Lt. Cav Sabre made by Henry Boker, Solingen, Germany, and two repros, one by Ames Sword Co and the other by MRL. The MRL and modern Ames repro are so identical that I will only include measurements of the Ames repro, for its name’ sake, to compare it with the original.. Ames told me their blades are made overseas and they assemble them at Ames. MRL’s are made by Windless Steelcraft of India. I believe they are made by the same people they are so much alike
Anyway, anyone ever heard of a German made U.S. 1860 Lt Cav sabre? An elderly lady I knew had it for years , saying her grandfather toted it while a cavalryman in the Confederate Army (for unit, see below). I went to visit her today and found that she had passed away a couple of years ago and now the granddaughter has the sword on her mantel piece. She was kind enough to get it down and let me take some measurements and compare my modern Ames repro with it.
The two are identical at first glance, but not after closer scrutiny (see below): ------------------------------ NOTE: I forgot my measuring tape and had to use an old wooden yard stick on hers which had no 16th inch markings. ------------------------------ REVIEW AND COMPARISON OF MODERN AMES SWORD CO. REPRO AND ORIGINAL U.S. CIVIL WAR 1860 LIGHT CAVALRY SABRE; MADE IN GERMANY BY HENRY BOKER IN SOLINGEN. USED BY PVT. DARRYL FRANK DERAMUS OR GEORGE FRANK DERAMUS IN “THE PRATTVILLE DRAGOONS“, CO. “H“, 3RD ALABAMA CAVALRY REGT., WHEELER’S CAVALRY CORPS, ARMY OF TENNESSEE, C.S.A. (There was a Darryl Frank DeRamus and a George Frank DeRamus, cousins and both from Prattville, Al. One fought in the above mentioned cav unit and the other in an infantry unit in Va..). I will find out which one it was.
Whether or not it was purchased and imported by the Confederate War Dept, State of Alabama, or Daniel Pratt of Prattville, who outfitted the “Prattville Dragoons” out of his own pocket in 1860-61, or was a captured Union weapon is unknown at this time.
BLADE: Boker sabre: On right side of blade near hilt: “Henry Boker; Solingen”. Ames repro: On right side is U.S., ADK, 1862. On left side is AmesMfgCo., Chiccopee, Mass.)
POB: Boker: ? Ames repro: 7 ¾” from guard.
POC: Boker: ? Ames repro: 11 ½” from point.
Length: Boker Sabre: 34 1/2". Slightly rounded on back edge, which is normal for that model. The 1840 Hvy Cav Sabre was flat on the back edge. This sabre is still very sharp back to about 10” or 11” from hilt. Along this “Forte” section of edge are several old blade or hack marks from parries I suppose. The blade is very dark and appears to have been blued or is dark due to age patina. Ames repro: Blade measures 34” and has flat back edge. Comes dull but easily sharpenable.
Width: Boker Sabre: W at hilt: Just a hair under 1 1/8". W at middle: 1". W abt 6 1/2" from point: Right at 7/8". W 3" from point: 3/4".
Ames repro: W @ hilt: 1 1/8” W @ middle: 1” W @ 6 ½” fr pt: still 1” W 3” fr pt: 15/16”.
Blade Thickness: Boker Sabre: Thickness at Hilt: not quite 3/8" . Thickness at center of blade: 1/4". Thickness at spot where false edge begins (abt 7“ fr pt): a hair under 3/16".
Ames Repro: Thickness at Hilt: 3/16” Thickness at center of blade: a hair under 3/16” Thickness at spot where false edge begins (abt 9 ½“ fr pt): 2/16“.
Fuller: Boker Sabre: 26 ½” long, beginning at edge cutout near hilt, and 3/4" wide from top or back of blade to other edge of fuller near edge. Secondary fuller along edge. Ames Repro: 23 ½” beginning at edge cutout near hilt. Same width and secondary fuller similar.
HANDLE: Boker Sabre: 5 ½” long with slight downward angle, rear third of handle angles much more noticeably. Only wooden grip remains, leather and wire missing. Although there are a couple of small pieces of what appears to be black leather still stuck to it. Guard: Identical to the modern Ames replica but slightly thicker or beefier and top of guard bent slightly towards blade. I have seen this on other originals. Was this standard? Ames repro: 5 ¼” long, bent at a slightly downward angle as the Boker. Other than this the handle is straight and the rear third of handle does not deviate and bend even further downward as the Boker does.
I regret to say I totally forgot to get the POB and POC of the orignal by Henry Boker. But I will say this, this Henry Boker 1860 Lt Cav Sabre is one of the most well balanced sabres I have ever held and handled in my life. God it must have been a fine sabre in its youth! As has been shown the blade has excellent distal taper and also from the side view where it slopes gradually to the deadly point, unlike the Ames repro and MRL repro sabres, which are identical to one another. They go from about 1 1/8” at hilt, like the Boker sabre. But from there the similarity ends. The Boker, which continues to narrow towards the point, narrows to 7/8” at middle of blade and is ¾” three inches from point. The modern Ames and MRL repro sabres are 1 to 1 1/16” wide at middle of blade and keep that width up until a nearly a couple of inches from point where the Ames repro is a hair over 7/8” wide at 3” fr point and the MRL is 1/16“ over 7/8“ at that spot.
Both the repros are fine sabres and could have equal, or near equal balance and feel, if their blades were the same dimensions as the Boker original. I wonder if it would be possible for a competent blade smith or sharpening expert to change the width of the blade the last 10-15” to make it more like the original?
I hope someone found the above interesting. Later, Freebooter
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2007 1:12:05 GMT
Many, many thanks, Freebooter. Most informative. I knew the original would be quite a bit thicker in the blade, but I hadn't concentrated as much on the distal taper, which had indeed reached a sort of pinnacle during the saber years. Original 19th Century military sabers are true works of the swordmaker's art. Thanks again, Hoss. Oh, also, cool that the original is a Boker. Yep, that's the same Boker that still makes knives today. I carry one of their pocketknives on a daily basis.
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Post by rammstein on Apr 12, 2007 1:28:51 GMT
whoa! I'd love to handle that original that you got the priveledge to examine. Freebooter, your reviews are fantatsic, keep it up
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Post by ShooterMike on Apr 12, 2007 2:12:08 GMT
Karma to you Freebooter, for going to the trouble of hunting down a Civil War original that was used in combat. That info is priceless to those of us who are interested in this stuff. FYI, I have done some pretty extensive reshaping of blades and can give you a couple of tips on getting it done without ruining the temper. Shoot me a PM if you're interested. Thanks again for going the extra mile for the rest of us.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2007 3:45:16 GMT
Thanks y'all. I am glad you found it interesting. I enjoy doing it. I have another friend who has some original Ames Co 1860 Lt Cav Sabres and an original 1840 Heavy Cav Sabre. He lives in Oxford, Ala., about two or so hours away. I am planning on driving up to see him and check those sabres out and see if there is any difference between them and the Boker sword.
By the way, I have always wondered what happened to all the other members of the Prattville Dragoons' sabres and stuff, there uniforms and equipment, or the several companies of infantry that came from our town and county. There is no telling what all is stuffed in some old attics and trunks around town. But all the old people who know and care about such things are dying off, if not haven done so already. Along with them is dying any knowledge or caring of such things. Now a generation of crack heads and greedy people sell everything they can get their hands on for money, family land, heirlooms, etc.. I am 51 now. But I can remember when I was a kid and teenager, etc, listening to the old folks sitting around talking. If ever they got on the subject of the War for Southern Independence you would have thought it was just fought a few short years ago. One time we were at Memaw's house visiting. It was mid summer in Prattville, Alabama and it was almost traditional to sit out on the porch chit chatting in the summer heat and breezes. Without ACs you had to wait until the house cooled down to be able to go in and go to bed. These youngsters now adays don't have an comprehension of such things. Anyway, Memaw and my three great aunts, a great uncle, and my mom were all lined up on the porch in rocking chairs, all of them fanning with hand held fans (In those days in Alabama we had no A/C and fanning in the Deep South was an art! The fans themselves were works of art!). All us kids were sitting around on the floor of the porch, sitting on the banisters, steps, etc.. During one of those conversations my sister chimed in and made some sort of comment about surely Gen Sherman was not that bad, etc., etc., that some of our own men (Southrons) surely were just as bad and evil. Man, you would have thought the world just ended or you'd just slapped them all in the face! All the creaking a popping of rocking chairs ceased, the fans ceased movement and were forgotten, and several pairs of eyes were glaring over the tops of those old specticles. I am quite sure they all saved their best dirty look for such occasions! 90 yr old Aunt Nannie began one of her famous orations about how Sherman himself gave the orders for all the looting and burning, how his men had barged in her grandparents' home in Colombia, S.C. demanding all valuables, rooting through every nook and cranny in the house, slashing portraits with their swords, chopping up their piano, indescrimitately striking and smashing things with their sabres, etc, etc. (must have been cavalry). Finally as the argument reached a cresendo they would all get up and one by one would go into the house, each waving their hands behind them as if to ward off any further discord and disagreement as they went in. I can still hear that old screen door slamming each time now just as if it just happened. Mama would try to calm them down, etc.. It was funny as heck too. But then without realizing it we kids were absorbing and learning what Southern pride was. Ah, those were the days, gone with the wind as the saying goes. Now all those dear old souls, the "Old Guard" are dead and gone.
Well, I have gone and slipped off topic again! Sorry about that! Take care, Freebooter/Hoss Cartwright
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Post by rammstein on Apr 13, 2007 21:52:43 GMT
I take exception to that! I had to SEVERAL hot and stifling weeks with no ac in the middle of the summer/fall thanks to hurricanes - one of which was katrina (the first time it hit, not the second time - Florida instead of Louisiana)!
And here is my summary on your relatives' feelings: War is not fair. That's why it's war instead of a baseball game. There are no rules and you do what you can to win. Sherman's destruction of the south was a huge strategical victory for the north. The south did numerous horrible things as well. People like Nathan Bedford Forrest are viewed by the north as imfamous bastards while in the south they are national heroes.
But who won? Seems like Sherman's march of destruction was strategically, emotionally, and morally effective for the north. If they hadn't the south could have continued the war for more years causing countless more lives lost on both sides of the conflict.
Yes, I'm a union sympathizer, but I call the shots as I see them. The war, in my opinion, wasn't justified on either side but someone had to win and winning rarely involves chivalry and fairness. Sorry to be so contraversial and all, but war has no place for niceties and sympathy.
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Post by ShooterMike on Apr 14, 2007 1:13:43 GMT
Hey Rammstein, That's German, right? Help me out here as my German is not very good at all. I am guessing that ramm-stein translates roughly to "headbutts hornet's nests" or something similar? Am I correct? ;D Just kidding of course (as if I had to say so)
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Post by ShooterMike on Apr 14, 2007 1:20:43 GMT
Freebooter, Thanks for wondering off track. I love hearing about old cavalry units as well as their descendants. Those stories from the "War of Northern Aggression" are another facet of real history. They should be told and not lost.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2007 1:48:23 GMT
"War of Northern Aggression" . Hehehe, I haven't heard that one in ages. One of my history teachers in high school was from Texas, and he used to call it that too. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2007 1:58:59 GMT
Hey y'all, Hey Rammstein, I understand. I have ancestors who fought on both sides so I can understand both views. But I have led us off topic. Let me end this by saying if you are curious as to why and how-come from the Southern point of view, as voiced by four people who were there and lived through those times in speeches in the years following the war, go to www.civilwarhome.com/confederatecauses.htm . Very interesting. FB
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Post by rammstein on Apr 14, 2007 2:02:19 GMT
Actually shootermike, it metaphorically means "Battering Ram"...
Having sympathy for one side of the conflict and comdemning another is simply one sided history. Are the vikings evil demon spawned bastards who where put on the earth to terrorize christians? According to the christian priests that wrote the history, that's true. But it's obviously wrong. The south comitted just as many atrocities, but there seems to be more passion in the southern view that keeps northern atrocities alive while the north seems to have all but forgotten...or forgiven...the ones inflicted on them. Regardless of what you think, both sides where wrong.
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Post by sol on Apr 14, 2007 2:20:49 GMT
The side that loses the war always remembers, with passion, the agony of defeat longer than the winners remember the thrill of victory. That is why often there is a second war to reclaim what was lost.
Note that I am not taking sides as to who was wrong or right during the civil war. Nor am I suggesting that another take place.
Sol
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2007 2:26:07 GMT
At one point it was suggested that a war with a foreign power be instigated to weld the country back together again for common defense. Can you imagine what an army we (a united America once more) would have had. Remember what Robert E. Lee once said, "If I had the Confederate Armies and the Union Artillery I need fear no foe on earth!" Or something to that effect.
Back to the Boker Sabre. I wrote Boker Co in Germany all about it, asking for any info or records. I am excited as to what they might say. But I have since learned that Boker put out several thousand sabres for American contracts. Dave
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2007 2:55:15 GMT
Back to the Boker Sabre. I wrote Boker Co in Germany all about it, asking for any info or records. I am excited as to what they might say. But I have since learned that Boker put out several thousand sabres for American contracts. Dave I hope you'll get a response, Hoss. That would be great if they had some specific info for you. Who knows if they even still have records from back then, but it's worth a shot.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2007 10:25:56 GMT
Hey Kriegschwert, In case you are interested, here is the letter I sent them. I too hope I get a response (I hope I didn't sound like a bumbling moran): ---------------------------------- 4/12/07 David Edelen Millbrook, Alabama, U.S.A.
Boker Knife/Sword Co. Solingen, Germany
Dear Sir, I was wondering if you could be so kind so as to answer a question for me pertaining to Boker's past (150 years ago). A friend of mine has an original U.S. Model 1860 Light Cavalry Sabre made by Henry Boker in Solingen that her ancestor used in our American War for Southern Independence (1861-1865). That model sabre was the standard issue sabre for the United States Cavalry troops at that time. That model was made by the Ames Co under contract with the U.S. Government, but some other companies also made it under contract with the government and it was also imported from Europe, made under contract by some European companies as well.
I had a chance to compare my modern day Ames Sword Co's reproduction, or continuation, of the U.S. 1860 Light Cavalry Sabre with the original Boker 1860 Lt Cav Sabre. As I was saying, although Ames Co was the main U.S. contractor contracted by the U.S. government to make the Model 1860 Light Cavalry Sabre there were other companies who contracted with the government to make that model, as well as companies over seas. And of course there were several Southern companies that made copies of it for the Confederate Army during that horrid war.
Anyway, as I compared them, took notes and measurements, etc, I noticed that the only markings on the original sword that I could find was "Henry Boker, Solingen" on the right side of the blade in front of the guard, between it and where the edge begins. I posted a review and comparison of the two swords on the "Sword Reviews" forum on the SBG Sword forums website (Down below is what I posted). If you are interested in the forums website go to /index.cgi .
That Boker sabre is one of the most well balanced and best handling sabres I have ever handled in my life! I wish y'all still made them or good quality combat ready reproductions of the 1860 Lt. Cav. Sabre like you did back in the Civil War (we Southerners call it The War for Southern Independence or War of Northern Aggression).
But I do have a couple of questions: Is that Henry Boker in Solingen who made the sabre the same company, possibly the founder, of your Boker knife company? If so, did Boker "blue" their blades? Because the original Boker sabre appears to have had a blued blade. Also, does your company still have any records from back then. I would like to know if it was sold through a contract to the United States Military or military supplier or to the Confederate States military contractors, etc.?
In case you are interested, the man that carried that sabre in the War for Southern Independence was a Pvt. DeRamus in the "Prattville Dragoons", a light cavalry company which eventually became Co. "H", 3rd Alabama Cavalry Regt., Gen Joe Wheeler's Cavalry Corps, Army of Tennessee, Confederate States of America. I don't know if he was issued that sabre or if it was a captured yankee weapon. The "Prattville Dragoons" was a Light Cavalry company from my home town of Prattville, Al.. They began forming in 1860, like thousands of other volunteers, in preparation for the defense of their homeland, the South. Daniel Pratt, the founder and owner of Pratt Gin Shops and Foundries and founder of Prattville, Al., outfitted the Prattville Dragoons out of his own pocket. I know he provided uniforms for the company but I am not sure of weapons. I think he might have outfitted them with those too and ordered the weapons for his pet company of troopers. At least that is what I have heard and read.
But I was curious as to whether the sword was ordered by the United States Government, the Confederate Government, the then Sovereign State of Alabama, some private companies in Alabama, or by Daniel Pratt himself. I know there were companies in various locations that ordered arms for our Confederate troops from overseas, and even the Union government did the same.
But if by chance your company and the sabre's maker, Henry Boker, are in fact one and the same and if you can find any records of your company having made copies or what have you of the U.S. Model 1860 Light Cavalry Sabre made by y'all and sent to America in the years of 1860-1865, especially 1860-1861, I would be eternally grateful for any information what so ever thereof pertaining to that sword. Sincerely, David Middleton Edelen II Millbrook, Al. P.S: Below is the review and comparison I posted on that discussion forum:
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2007 21:08:08 GMT
From Richard Bezdek's German Swords and Sword Makers:
Heinrich Boeker, located in Ramscheid & Solingen, 1837-1869 --Heinrich exported swords to his brother Herman in New York during the American Civil War, 1861-1865. --Some were marked "H. Boker"; others were marked "Henry Boker." --Most swords exported were M1840 cavalry sabers.
From Richard Bezdek's American Swords and Sword Makers:
Herman Boker [Heinrich's brother] imported 45,533 M1840 and M1860 cavalry sabers, 1,064 M1840 Light Artillery sabers, and 742 M1832 Foot Artillery swords during the Civil War.
Hope that was helpful!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2007 14:10:52 GMT
I have recently acquired a Henry Boker/Sollingen Union calvary sword that was given to my father when he was a teenager by my great-grandmother. The story was simply that it was "liberated" from a Union soldier by someone in the family. My family was the Shenandoah Valley, and I recently learned that 4 of my g-grandmother's uncles were in the Virginia Calvary and participated in the Battle of Brandy Station, Gettysburg, Spotsylvania and many other significant engagements. I am new to the business of swords, but I must say that this is in pristine condition. The original hilt was lizard skin that eventually fell apart. My father replaced the hilt with brand new lizard skin, but the wire wrap is original. The sword has no visible rust and still has it's scabbard, also not rusted. I've been told by someone that this may be an 1840 version, but I'm not sure what the difference between the 1840 and 1860 models is and if I can discern it. Anyway, just wanted to share this tidbit....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2007 14:51:17 GMT
Lizv, Sounds great! Provenance really makes worthwhile the collecting of antique swords. Not many people have such a tangible family link to the past. Congratulations.
I doubt that the original grip was lizard skin. It was more likely "shagreen" (fish skin). If the original grip was fish skin instead of leather, that might indicate that the sword is an officer's sword rather than an enlisted man's.
One way to tell the difference between an 1840 an and 1860 is by looking at the grip. The 1860 grip swells towards the middle whereas the 1840 does not. There are probably other things to look for, but US swords are not my area.
Other features that can help include any maker or government marks. The date for a sword can be narrowed down (sometimes) based on the manufacturer's dates of operation, the dates a given government inspector was active (these swords will often bear an inspector's initials), and sometimes the date of manufacture is stamped right in the sword!
We always like to see pics if you have any to share!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2007 22:36:31 GMT
Spadroon,
Finally have some digital photos of the Boker sword. How do I add them? Or do I have to e-mail them directly?
Lizv
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Post by rammstein on Aug 7, 2007 22:45:19 GMT
Lizv, you can post them here via www.imageshack.usFrom there, upload them under whatever size you want and then copy and past the last url you get on your message here. Then, put "img" on one end and "/img" on te other (replace those "" marks with [], I'd do it myself, but then it would think my text was a picture).
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