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Post by Magus on Oct 12, 2010 5:29:16 GMT
Hello everyone I have a pretty noobish questions to ask, but I've looked everywhere and I count find any clear answer, so I'll ask THE web reference about Swords: The SBG forums ! :lol: For quite some time now I've been interested in Damascus/pattern welded steel (I even own a Kanetsune Seki Shun, model KB-227 Kanetsune Seki knife) What i would really like to know more about is the difference between Damascus/Pattern welded/Wootz/Laminated Steel/etc. I know my terminology is probably wrong, but that's what i want to know! And here's a picture of the knife in question (shamelessly burrowed from the Kanetsune Seki's web page):  Thanks to anyone who can help me ^^ Magus |
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 12, 2010 5:41:58 GMT
I can't really help you since I don't know too much about steels myself, but I what I remember reading is that Wootz (or watered) steel is characterized by bands or sheets of micro carbides within a tempered martensite or pearlite matrix; Wootz steel was originally developed in India in 300BCE and were renowned for their strength and sharpness.
True Damascus steel, from the city of Damascus, is believed to have evolved out of Wootz steel, and so, would probably share many of its similarities. It was reported to be incredibly strong, with an outstanding edge retention, to the point where it was said to be able to cleave stone without a nick. Obviously, this is probably a marketing gimmick, but it could probably sheer through armor with easy.
Pattern welded steel mimics Damascus steel, which is made by welding together thin slices of steel and iron, which results in a tough blade, but is only an imitation of actual Damascus. Other than that, I can't tell you anything about it and I, unfortunately, have no information on Laminated steel and the rest.
As an aside, I've been very curious about the Kanetsune Shun (the larger variant), so can I ask you how you like it?
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Post by bloodwraith on Oct 12, 2010 6:57:48 GMT
Magus: damascus steel is a crucible steel, though often people use damascus incorrectly by labelling pattern welded steel as such. Pattern welded steel is different types of steel welded into steel billets, it is a very difficult process and badly done pattern welded steel can fail catastrophically.
Damascus steel is not technically from the city of Damascus but I wont split hairs over it. Also there are other types of crucible steels as well. Also your kanetsune is not damascus in case you were interested.
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Post by Magus on Oct 12, 2010 8:02:56 GMT
vincent Dolan: Thank you a lot, it's already clearer for me ^^ bloodwraith: Thanks for the info, ahh, what a company can do to hype their blade  I'm working on a full review of it now and I'll paste the link here when it's done, but what I can tell you right now is that it's one of the best knife I have handled and surely my favorite, almost everything about it is just amazing.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 12, 2010 8:06:05 GMT
Not a problem. And while Damascus steel may not have originated there, there is where it became best known. I look forward to it; there aren't a whole lot of reviews on Kanetsune since they're pretty expensive, but some of them, their Ryou especially, look really nice.
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Post by bloodwraith on Oct 12, 2010 8:51:56 GMT
Kanetsune are brilliant knives, I wouldn't call them expensive for what you get, I think to some degree they are actually underpriced. I'd quite like to see them make a traditional tanto or wakizashi with their patented steel.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 12, 2010 9:04:16 GMT
Something like this, Wraith? www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store ... ?s=KTKB122 And I really only say expensive because I'm cheap (it's how I was raised) and I have a bit of a problem with the idea of paying more than 100$ for a knife; I'd be willing to, don't get me wrong, since there's some Benchmades I want around the 200$ mark, but I haven't actually heard anything about Kanetsune until now. |
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Post by chrisperoni on Oct 12, 2010 16:39:49 GMT
I'm late to the party but... here's a link to a related, old thread of mine: sbgswordforum.proboards.com/inde ... read=18552 As far as I've read a wootz sword ends up as a single piece of steel (as opposed to assembling each part) where the specific hardness of various parts (handle, guard etc.) is controlled thorugh selective water cooling for each area. |
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Post by Magus on Oct 12, 2010 18:09:30 GMT
chrisperoni: Humm, still some valuable information to get from this thread, thanks ^^ since pretty much all of my questions were answered, I would mind a bit of thread hijacking. Did you bought that Tanto finally and if so how is it (in terms of relative quality, cutting qualities, etc. and in terms of the blade itself).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2010 20:52:05 GMT
I'm pretty sure damascus and wootz are one and the same. kanetsune knives are made with a sam mai construction, with the edge being Hitachi blue or white paper steel. they are not allowed to make swords although they do make a wak like knife for cutting up tuna. I have owned several and they are the best knives I've ever had, also the sharpest. Well worth the money. By the way I bought a damascus sword once, opened the box looked at the blade put it back in the box and sent it back. nuff said. oh yeah with a kanetsune you can split paper tissue thin, fun way to show off to your friends.
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Post by chrisperoni on Oct 12, 2010 21:08:02 GMT
No..not yet at least- I'm planning to get a tanto as a gift fro my brother so right now I'm trying to get it out of him whether he likes the straight blade versions, without tipping him off that I'm thinking of these for him- tricky
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Luka
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Post by Luka on Oct 12, 2010 22:56:59 GMT
Pattern welding is not just an imitation of damascus/wootz. It's a process of welding together rods of steel and iron to combine their characteristics in the blade. Twisting of the mixed rods creates the pattern people like so much. Welding straight rods was practice since etruscan and celtic times but pattern appears a bit later, but still in ancient period. Damascus/wootz is crucible steel where different impurities and carbon deposit in different layers and thus creates a pattern, very different from pattern welding pattern. Oh, btw, damascus swords still can't cut armor, how ever sharp they were.  |
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Post by bloodwraith on Oct 13, 2010 1:16:04 GMT
A little bit of a hi-jack but also a beautiful example of what the japanese refer to as blue steel, I just purchased this;
I'm excited to get this one
also I have my eye on this;
Not really thread jacking as these are both examples of what the japanese call damascus and I can't honestly think of another way to put it, especially with the blade above which is a combination of copper, brass and stainless steel.
The kanetsune I always wanted is their mai, the longest blade they make and I think it would be utterly exquisite.
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Post by Opferous on Oct 13, 2010 3:39:54 GMT
BW, you picked up a Nagao higonokami? I've been debating about getting that piece for so long. You must share impressions when you get it!
And yeah, that Hiro piece is quite special with the multi-colored effect from the different metals.
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Post by bloodwraith on Oct 14, 2010 10:32:39 GMT
Opferous: I did indeed snag one of these and if I am understanding correctly I believe I should get a mini one with it as well, although chances are that I wont because the wording was ambiguous. I really like the simplicity of the higonokami but the real beauty is that the elegance of this blade belies the difficulty of making it. I also have my eye on one of these;
Just because I love the wood, I missed out on the higonokami I really wanted;
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2010 0:24:23 GMT
Blood, can you tell us where you got the Higo, I've been wanting to get one and these are the real deal. Also Mcusta makes a nice pattern welded pocket knife. thanks for sharing.
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Post by bloodwraith on Oct 15, 2010 5:02:45 GMT
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Post by iealchemist on Oct 16, 2010 11:02:49 GMT
Just going back to damascus/wootz blades for a bit, where can you actually get one from? (Other than angelsword.com, I really don't like the fittings on their swords)
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Post by bloodwraith on Oct 16, 2010 11:12:51 GMT
baltimore knife does crucible steel weapons, they are the closest to wootz I have seen but I've never handle one.
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