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Post by Student of Sword on Oct 11, 2010 19:59:59 GMT
I am a former kungfu student turned JSA student. when I was doing kungfu, I always thought that Wushu is destroying Chinese traditional martial arts. There are too much flashy dancing, the moves are ineffective and wasteful. Worst, it is displacing the real traditional Chinese martial arts. What Wushu does to the perception of weapons is terrible, real weapons are not light whippy like what you see performing on wushu. Give one of those performers a real heavy sharp sword, and I bet he/she would cut himself/herself.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 11, 2010 20:14:17 GMT
I don't know what I can say that you didn't already say, to be honest. Wushu is absolutely murdering Chinese Martial Arts in the most brutal, yet aesthetically pleasing way possible. But, in actuality, Wushu doesn't destroy just CMA, but the perception regarding all martial arts in general. If you say you practice martial arts these days, people expect you to either be an MMA fighter or to perform a fancy dance routine with a tin foil sword.
However, I think I'm slightly biased on the subject because I believe that the concept of 'sport' martial arts in general is destroying the practice. The martial way was once about killing or incapacitating your opponent in the most effective manner possible, often because you had more than one whilst on the field of combat; now it's about scoring points or making money.
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LiamBoyle
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Post by LiamBoyle on Oct 11, 2010 21:46:31 GMT
Do you really want to get me started in on this? I'll admit I do study one of the "Simplified" styles of Taijiquan, but the one I practice was created for the Second Sino-Japanese war.
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Post by Student of Sword on Oct 11, 2010 22:03:44 GMT
My mom practices simplified Yang Taichi. It does wonder for her health. There is real health and medicinal benefit to simplified Taichi that remove from martial arts. I am talking about pseudo-martial-art dancing known as wushu. They even do it to music. And I cannot stand their flimsy swords and daos. What cartwheel and flipping has to do with martial arts?
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LiamBoyle
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Post by LiamBoyle on Oct 11, 2010 22:45:30 GMT
There's more than one type of Simplified Yang Taiji. Does she practice the 13 form, the 24 form, or the 37 form?
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Post by Student of Sword on Oct 11, 2010 22:54:39 GMT
Liam,
Sorry, I don't know. I will ask her the next time I call her. But I am glad she is doing it and enjoying it. I think that is why she is so healthy. I don't think she sees it as martial arts.
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LiamBoyle
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Post by LiamBoyle on Oct 11, 2010 22:58:37 GMT
Taijiquan (T'ai Chi Ch'uan in Wade-Giles romanization) is a martial art at it's core. However, it is widely know for it's health benefits, and if the health benefits are what promotes it, so be it.
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Post by ineffableone on Oct 11, 2010 23:19:05 GMT
Wushu dancing is fairly bad, but worse is the State sponsored Shaolin. The Chinese wanting to capitalize on the popularity of Shoalin opened "official" Shaolin training. It is mass produced Kung Fu without any of the spiritual philosophical training. The mass production of so called Shaolin Kung Fu without becoming a Monk is destroying the true Shaolin style with watered down pseudo Shaolin. Since Wushu and Tai Chi come from Shaolin I find it sad the source is now being corrupted so deeply.
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Post by Student of Sword on Oct 11, 2010 23:33:22 GMT
My father, being a devout Buddhist, is very sadden by what happened at Shaolin Temple. First, the people who look like monks are not ordained monks. They do not keep any of the vows (poverty, celibacy...ect.). Some are actually married. The Shaolin Temple was the birthplace of Chan/Zen Buddhism. The temple past fame was that it was a center of Buddhist Theology, not martial arts. Now there is no theological training at the temple at all. The stuffs they showed to tourists are lame Wushu. It is just a tourist trap.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2010 0:21:20 GMT
Wow, I thought Shaolin was still Shaolin. This is really depressing. (And shows me how little I know)
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Post by Student of Sword on Oct 12, 2010 0:23:49 GMT
Most of the monks were killed or exiled during the Cultural Revolution. Shaolin, as an unbroken and continuing lineage (both theology and martial arts) is extincted.
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LiamBoyle
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Post by LiamBoyle on Oct 12, 2010 0:40:59 GMT
The book "American Shaolin" by Matthew Polly actually covers a lot of the degradation of the Shaolin tradition.
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Post by HouShe on Oct 13, 2010 0:15:23 GMT
One of the worst parts is, when you're doing a traditional style, the moves aren't flashy. They might be complicated to learn but each dip of an elbow, rotation of a finger has a use.
In a correctly taught version of the Yang 108, there are two different ways leading into Single whip for example. People often say, 'the applications for Single whip look nothing like the move' Which is so incredibly wrong. That means you've been taught only one way of doing it. Why? Because the second one is complicated and boring to watch. It's not very pretty.
Another thing that I see in Wushu competitions is that they rotate their rear heel back to get a wider, more spectacular stance, rather than having a shorter stance that is more practical. Their knees wobble as they move, sliding out sideways rather than forward.
As for Tai Chi for health getting it out there. That's part of the disease. Sure, it might help people get healthier, but unless their emphasis is upon doing it as a martial art, it's not helping any more than doing a slow dance or taking a walk in a park for the same amount of time.
It also destroys the art, piece by piece. I've lost track of the amount of times that I've answered people for our school, that no 'it's not relaxing chi building'. That makes it easy, it's how simplified forms came about and it means that the transmission tends to be lost. Of course, it's great for making money. You do a course for a year or two, until you can pass it off to the unwitting as 'the real deal' and then you rake in a fair bit of money from pensioners and others who want some new age stuff, without giving them anything of value.
That's not to say that you can't teach those same people the traditional version. Hell you can even break the 108 up into three separate forms. Each progressively harder than the last. Even if they never use it to fight, that focus on what it is for, doing the martial applications correctly gives so much better health benefits that it is crazy that people ever went for a simplified version. Hell the first section is only about 4 minutes long. There's no kicks admittedly, but the elderly generally don't want to start with them anyway.
Needless to say, you can probably see that this is a subject close to my heart. Fortunately it is much easier to find a Bagua or Xing-Yi instructor, often they teach Taiji as a martial art as well. Or all three, joining the three major internal arts together.
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LiamBoyle
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Post by LiamBoyle on Oct 13, 2010 9:25:11 GMT
I don't quite know about that. There are a lot of CMC/ZMQ players out there that are doing quite well in competition. It's is also a group of CMC/ZMQ stylists that are trying to get the rules of American push hands competitions changed to better equate to the rules of Chinese push hands competitions.
Most people who are seeking out martial arts for serious training, are not seeking out Taijiquan. The serious fighters are seeking out MMA, Brazilian Jujitsu, Krav Maga, Systema, and other arts that are perceived as "combat oriented." The people who are seeking out taijiquan are the elderly, the injured, and others who's primary focus is the health and longevity benefits of taiji. As long as they are seeking out taijiquan our art survives, as long as students who wish to learn the martial applications are taught them our art survives. Even the Beijing simplified 24 form does have martial applications. I believe that the intent of the student should guide the training as much as the intent of the teacher and the school. As for making money, depends what country and what part of which country one lives in as to whether or not money can be made. In many parts of the US the only way for many martial arts instructors to make a living is to also have "day jobs" to provided a main wage. There simply isn't enough interest in martial arts, particularly the internal "soft" arts for instructors to make a living wage of student fees.
That more and more people come to Taijiquan for the health, philosophical, and spiritual aspects - is any many ways a good thing. It means Taiji is being seen as something of value. As long as taiji is seen as having value, ways can be found to preserve its martial heritage.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 13, 2010 9:42:25 GMT
It also depends fully on the style. If you claimed to teach something like Shaolin or, for another hyped style, Ninjutsu, you can make a hell of a lot of money even through just putting out DVDs; whether or not the instructor is any good, however, is the thing that's up for debate, because many places refuse to take opened DVDs back for whatever reason, so if you're like me (or yourself, Liam) whose primary method is learning through DVDs, if it turns out the instructor sucks or it's a complete fake, you could find yourself out anywhere from 40-400$ or more because of it. Anyways, by claiming to teach the 'true art' of any style that has been hyped through the media, you could probably make a good deal of money.
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LiamBoyle
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Post by LiamBoyle on Oct 13, 2010 10:05:00 GMT
Not so much Vincent. I've known quite a few martial arts instructors over the years, and most of them barely make above the poverty line unless they have had day jobs. As for the DVD sales, most of that money goes to the production company not the instructor. I hear my wife's Belly dance people complaining about that all the time, as they teach through a lot of DVD's. Also, for a "good" production company to make your DVD's, an instructor has to prove their qualifications pretty well, ie fame has to be established first. The reputation of the instructor is part of what sells the video.
Of course, now in the day of You Tube and Windows Movie Maker any idiot can make and sell VCD's and DVD's. That is why we as consumers of said products have to use critical thinking and critical judgment. I have regretted only one Taiji DVD purchase I have made and that was a DVD by David Dorian Ross that teaches less than a full form. Everything else has been researched fully before I made the purchase. I am also working with a certain Taiji school in New York for feedback on my own practice of taiji and so that I may eventually receive my own instructor certification through them. This is going to be a long process.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 13, 2010 10:24:30 GMT
Ah, yes, I always forget about the production company. However, there are some cases where actual qualifications can be overlooked in favor of fame; apparently, there's a man named Richard Van Donk selling a Ninjutsu home study course that 'will guide you all the way to shodan (black belt)' and I'd considered it for awhile. But, no reviews, so I scoured Youtube comments of his videos and he's basically teaching next to nothing. I even managed to find a torrent of his older tapes (the ones before he made the switch to DVD) and while the info I saw was decently presented, the video kept skipping back and forth, repeat itself after about 15 minutes, or never showed a full explanation. Basically, he would show a technique and go into the explanation part, then it would cut out.
On that note, have you ever had any dealings with Wing Lam Enterprises, Liam? They're completely dedicated, it seems to CMA and everything provided in the clips of their tapes seem very well presented and promising, but I've never actually heard anything about them.
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LiamBoyle
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Post by LiamBoyle on Oct 13, 2010 19:03:09 GMT
They are reputable vendor from what I've heard, but I haven't personally gotten anything from them.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 13, 2010 19:13:59 GMT
Indeed, that's what I found, too. Unless things have seriously gone downhill in the last few years, a post that was made on a martial arts forum some years back called them one of the best. Which is good because they seem like the only place offering traditional gongfu and seem pointedly avoidant to all things wushu, with the exception of wushu steel practice swords.
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LiamBoyle
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Post by LiamBoyle on Oct 13, 2010 19:23:53 GMT
They want to much on the Rattan shield though. I have a bunch of there vids on Mulanquan wish listed for my wife.
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