LiamBoyle
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Fechtmeister the Clueless of H.A.S.C.
Posts: 478
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Post by LiamBoyle on Oct 1, 2010 15:04:49 GMT
First and foremost, my apologies go out to my fellow forum dwellers for the low recording quality. My webcam was not wanting to play nice this morning, and I'm only on cup of coffee #1 so I was not awake enough to try this, but I did anyway. This vid was made in response to a thread over in the general sword training forum about "spinning a sword" sbgswordforum.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=swordtraining&action=display&thread=13122&page=1#217841What I'm trying to show is the difference between a sword form movement and the actual technique it represents. Chinese Sword Arts are guilty of being "needlessly" showy in the sword forms, especially in the more modern "Xin" forms. However, most of the form movements are not meant to be used directly. With any luck I've managed to show this difference. (*video and thread originally posted 11-06-2009*)
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 1, 2010 19:28:06 GMT
You've got nothing to worry about on quality, Liam. Admittedly, while it's a little fuzzy, it still serves its purpose and gets the point across. With that said, you wouldn't mind posting proper sword grips, would you? I've found several different methods, so I can't be sure which one is correct or if they're all correct and just dependent on the style.
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LiamBoyle
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Fechtmeister the Clueless of H.A.S.C.
Posts: 478
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Post by LiamBoyle on Oct 1, 2010 19:32:22 GMT
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Post by HouShe on Oct 2, 2010 8:36:02 GMT
I'm sorry, but no. I have done both simplified forms and traditional forms and there is a massive difference. There is a level of subtlety in a traditional form, when you learn under a good Master, that is missing in the simplified forms. Simplified forms are made for demonstration and being 'flashy.' Done correctly, a form should not have any differences between the way it is done and the actual use. (Possibly stance and timing since the duifang rarely seems to want to oblige with form perfect movements. But it is certainly possible, but the difference should simply be a matter of forward/backwards weighting or lining up, nothing major.) Whether a move is specifically designed for sword v sword combat is another matter. As you linked on the old boards, and is frequently shown in Scott Rodells book on Taiji swordsmanship, many moves are designed for polearms and various other weapons. As for the spins, watch how in that clip towards the end they are doing the four corners drill. On the lower blocks, you have to spin the weapon rather than go for a straight thrust. WITHOUT a spin is extraordinarily simple to defend against. You just draw your jian across in Ya (Press down) and if your distance is right, a simple reach forward gives you their pommel. Even a soft pull back on their pommel will torque the blade out of their hand, into yours. You can also bring it up into their groin for the kill to the artery present. (If using real blades.) Re-watching your clip, (I don't know the 32 point form, only the 54) it seems that you go from a thrust, back into a spin that leads into a Pi cut. Done correctly, that's almost identical to a section of the 4 corners drill found on Linda's website. (If you are following rather than leading the exercise.) So the correct order for the form movement should be: Thrust, deflection, spin the blade around the duifangs weapon, cut/thrust.
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Post by HouShe on Oct 2, 2010 8:45:10 GMT
Additionally, because I have noticed you say it quite frequently on the old boards. In a traditional form, I'm not sure about the new forms since they are designed for show and not combat, there are absolutely no moves purely for meditation. Even the beginning, prior to changing the jian into the right hand, when done correctly are deflections and pommel strikes.
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LiamBoyle
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Fechtmeister the Clueless of H.A.S.C.
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Post by LiamBoyle on Oct 6, 2010 10:02:33 GMT
There seems to be some of that in the modern 32 form, but it's very hard to imagine direct practical application for other movements in that same form. I'm just now starting to learn the classical sword form, and the applications do seem to be more direct. Now for the three groin cuts immediately following "Three rings around the moon" in the classical (CMC version) Yang sword form, I can see smaller condensed versions of those same movements used in combat, but not the larger circular movements found in the form. Smaller circular movements are mandated by the body mechanics of the movements but when facing a live duifang, even if it is my four year old, the larger form movements are just too slow even when performed at top speed - they give the duifang too much opening.
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Post by Sir Tre on Oct 6, 2010 15:28:31 GMT
if you get the vid from ymaa on 54 jian fa that we were talking about once, you can modify the apps to fit your form. the main difference is only nomenclature. ie small literary star the you perform looks like little chief star, or some call little dipper.... depends upon teacher and who their master was.
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Post by HouShe on Oct 6, 2010 17:13:20 GMT
Small Literary Star, Little Chief Star and Little Dipper all refer in Taoist literature to a same segment of the constellation of the Dipper. Pretty much just depends on your translation into English.
And in the classical sword form the movements vary greatly amongst various teachers. My Sifu, the first day I was learning the sword form, which included up to the Little Dipper, said from Big Dipper, large circle (big Liao cut to the left), small circle to the right (Chou), small circle back to the left (Chou) big circle into Little dipper (Liao to the right).
He also teaches two variations of the form, depending on the students goals. I told him that I didn't care about 'pretty' I wanted to learn the form as close to practical as possible. Since he has not the greatest English in the world his response was (paraphrased) 'Ah fighting form. Much smaller, tighter.' In the demonstration version of Little Dipper that he teaches, the left hand is extended outwards, similar to in Big Dipper, 'fighting form' it's up on the wrist, safely hidden away and giving that little bit extra protection to your veins.
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Post by HouShe on Oct 6, 2010 17:17:52 GMT
The interesting bit about the 54 point form is there is a list of moves, written down by one of YCF's contemporaries (or students, I forget which, it's 4am here and my brain is going to mush.) As long as you're learning those moves it's ok, however the emphasis depends on who is teaching it. And who taught them. For example, I really don't like William C.C. Chen's sword form. Nor Yang Jun's. There's very little intent. Compare it with a clip of T.T. Liang from the 70's which is technically the same form but so much more vigorous.
To my eye, which has a much different aesthetic view, where application and power are more beautiful than long flowing moves, T.T. Liang had some of the most beautiful form work. (This is pre long Tassle days. Not his later stuff)
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LiamBoyle
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Fechtmeister the Clueless of H.A.S.C.
Posts: 478
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Post by LiamBoyle on Oct 6, 2010 22:09:26 GMT
I was told Ken Van Sickle had a really definitive sword form. Personally my favorite is the You Tube of Professor Cheng doing sword form:
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Post by HouShe on Oct 7, 2010 0:59:13 GMT
Keep in mind that when CMC performed that version he was old. That's not to say that he's doing it wrong, but that he has years, decades even of experience in doing it much tighter. He is very fluid, and as you get older, that's often more desirable than optimising your ability to kill someone. (Or in our case, win tournaments.)
Let me see if I can find a clip showing the difference. But in the meantime I will explain, the first part is nicest for the explanation. The horizontal strikes are really good for developing fajin and if that's what you're interested in (which I am) should be used for that as much as possible, historically, nice powerful slashes to carve through armour. But they stop with the point still facing forward, tip at your duifang. A simple roll of the wrist (best way I can describe it) making a tiny circle with the tip of your jian before coming back to the left. As opposed to drawing right back.
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Post by HouShe on Oct 7, 2010 1:07:55 GMT
Here's a quick clip of my Sifu doing it. (Great man, not too good on the technology.) This isn't exactly how he teaches it in class, but if you notice how much tighter the movements are compared to CMC.
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LiamBoyle
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Fechtmeister the Clueless of H.A.S.C.
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Post by LiamBoyle on Oct 7, 2010 9:19:25 GMT
Yes, Master Ho's form does have smaller, tighter, movements than the Professor's. The Professor was trying to promote the health and longevity aspects of taijiquan much more than the fighting aspects and that is apparent in how he practiced. However, the fighting aspects are present in both forms. One form is a little more indirect in it's presentation of them, that is all. There is a quality of movement in the Professor's form that I dream of being able to capture in my own practice, a level of Sung that I hope I may be able to reach in a few more decades, but right now simply remains a goal in my mind. That level of directness or indirectness is what I was trying to point out in my video. Apparently unsuccessfully as we have been having this conversation. In the Beijing simplified forms the level of indirectness is much higher, this also seems to be the case in Xinjia Chen style forms. Much more work has to be done to separate out the basic cuts and deflections from the form movements.
Also since I do not train in fajing that might also lead to a difference in how we are perceiving things. (The orange chair is not there. It is only there because we perceive it to be there, we perceive it to be orange, and we perceive it to be a chair. Therefore, is there actually an orange chair?)
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Post by HouShe on Oct 8, 2010 5:29:18 GMT
Oh CMC did have an amazing level of Song. That is certain. But I am well aware of the directness and indirectness of the form. My issue is that there is a continuing of teaching the indirectness. This indirectness would not have been present when people were learning the sword for survival.
I have a deep seated belief that to truly progress in a martial art, it has to be stripped to its more primal essentials. Good Song is highly admirable. However, focusing on Song alone at the expense of the other energies is as bad as ignoring it entirely.
In my practice, I attempt to have each movement immediately practical rather than some vague 'principle'. Each of the 8 energies should be practiced and developed as much as you can. Far too many people neglect the energies like fa jin in favour of purely peng and or song. Taiji is about balance, the balance between hard and soft. Go too much in one way or the other and it's no longer Taiji. Yang Jun for example has gone so far to the soft end of the spectrum, that what he does can't really be considered Taiji anymore.
As I was saying initially, refine the form until it's exactly the same way you'd do each thing in actual combat and you'll find the soul of Taiji.
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LiamBoyle
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Fechtmeister the Clueless of H.A.S.C.
Posts: 478
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Post by LiamBoyle on Oct 8, 2010 8:56:48 GMT
So basically the same reason I have a copy of General Qi Jiguang's "Fist Cannon" in my taiji notebook? To try and find that core essence.
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Post by Taiwandeutscher on Oct 22, 2010 6:07:06 GMT
Even as a practitioner in a ZMQ group down here in southern Taiwan, I still prefer the traditional 54 Yang sword as transmitted by Chen Weiming. Sword fighting is not only sticky sword as Van Sickle suggests, that is a basic method, sure, but there is also distance fighting. Too much got lost in ZMQ's "rounded" form. You need to get the "square" parts, too, and find applications of the moves. S. Rodell does a great job, but as I said on the old forum, his sword testing is not every fighter's need. I believe, if you can rely on a blade (tested), you can go easier, especially the hard hitting is not in my training, medium bamboo, green and dry, are good enough to see my technique.
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