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Post by randomnobody on May 17, 2007 0:17:36 GMT
I gathered as much already, nevertheless, having read a few of Marc's reviews myself, just having another person verify that Marc's reviews are, even if only in thier own opinion, are trustworthy and reliable, dare I say unbiased, is enough for me to take that much more from them.
You're "research," as little as you credit it, is undeniably at a higher level than my own. Perhaps "research" was a poor word. Maybe I should have gone with "interpretation of facts and points that have been presented by others" or something to the effect. I'm not the best with those darn "words."
Understanding that your niche happens to lean to Europe, rather than Japan, I still feel I can respect your thoughts on a fair majority of blade types. Having also heard from Ronin, and in some threads chopchop, with regard to the current subject of Oni Forge and their blades, Marc, here, too, I enjoy commas, by the way, has had a profound influence on my growing interest. I'm not one to leap into a new sword without gathering as much information from as many people as I can first. In the event of moving to a new manufacturer/forge (choose your own appropriate word), I also look for the most reasonably-priced sword I feel I can still garner a fair impression from. As to Oni Forge, the Kiyomaro, in factory second, is this fair compromise. A higher-end blade, at a lower-end price because of potentially flawed...handle wrap. Really, as long as it doesn't just fall off, it's good enough for me.
Your opinion isn't respected for your tenure, post count, or even overall reputation. Your opinion is respected because you make it clear that it is merely an opinion based on impressions gathered from other people's experiences. This does not make it worthless. Your honesty, and modest backing, quite well deserve my respect.
Anyway, Marc, chopchop, ronin, I believe I need a few more words from each of you, if you would. Feel free to let loose. You'll all be taken into equal consideration.
Hooray for reading and writing whole books as single posts!
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Post by rammstein on May 17, 2007 0:27:09 GMT
I'm blushing from flattery Thanks mate, it's nice to see I'm appreciated
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2007 3:19:22 GMT
Damn if i can't be famous maybe i will have to become infamous *puts on his devils advocate outfit* *Cuts the puppet strings ramm has attached to random* You are no longer his puppet, fly be free! j/k Ramm have you been setting up alter ego identities so you can praise yourself again? I thought paul warned you about that lol j/k Thanks for the karma, i am a karma whore
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Post by randomnobody on May 17, 2007 3:37:25 GMT
Now, bloodwraith, fear not, as I have seen plenty of you around, as well. I don't suppose you have any input to offer toward the current topic? If all you're here to do is harrass me and Rammstein, I can't feel quite the same about you. Seriously, though, do you have any thoughts on this sword? I'd like to hear them. I welcome even a novice's opinion. Right now the only thing steering me away from this sword (short of price, which equates roughly to "I'll have to wait about a month between my other current orders before I can feel safe paying this much") is the continuation of the dreaded black-on-black, with more black, blackened, it does get old, and the length of the kissaki. I'm willing to overlook both if the blade is of appropriate quality, which I jugde thusfar that I'd certainly not be disappointed should I buy it. What I'm trying to decide now is WHEN to buy it, if I should just wait a bit to see where Oni Forge goes, accepting that factory seconds aren't exactly made as such, thus the inventory level is unpredictable, so in the event that a second is unavailable, would I be willing to part with the $500 a "good" one costs? This calls for more "research." (yes, there's that word again) Still waiting on more input from Marc, an owner of the sword in question and the starter of this thread, as well as ronin and chopchop, individuals credited as bearing great knowledge in the field. Come on, guys, anything works.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2007 4:37:07 GMT
Thanks for the karma, i am a karma whore i am a karma chameleon.
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Marc Ridgeway
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"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on May 17, 2007 14:26:01 GMT
,Hey man,
I for one have never had a problem with Oni Forge, and the products are Great...I own 6 or so Onis and have owned and sold another 20 or so...I bought 5 tonbo seconds... a good deal on some nice , barely flawed swords...i like ellipsis by the way... I feel I would be remiss to tell you to order away, since there seems to be some troubles...but I for one think Loren is still around, as I got a shobu 2 weeks ago, and Loren has swords on eBay right now. A lot of the troubles are with ukigumo katana,which are to be customized to some degree, which means sending it to an outside craftsman. I guess I'm saying I would wait and see what happens with Oni, but the swords are worth buying.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2007 14:56:21 GMT
I have no problem with oni forge but if you hate the black on black maybe check out roninswords.com as he will wrap the tsuka and sageo in any colour he has in stock. Second thing you could do is sand back the saya, undercoat it and then take it to a body shop or a professional painter to do something to the saya then re-lacquer it. The other option is buy a loose wrap second from oni with the blade you like and get brian at roninswords to rewrap it, from what i have heard about him he does damn good work and it is quite competitively priced. If you are still looking for a not black on black depending on how much you are looking to spend, there is the gen 2 which i would trust because everything else they make is exquisite quality. Last legend is another option you could look at and there is even paul chen. If i had the money i would consider any of the higher quality hanwei blades. Especially the new bainite ones he is bringing out. What are you looking at doing with it and what sort of fittings and colours are you looking for? If you can find blades with single mekugi they are generally the better option. How much are you looking to spend?
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Post by randomnobody on May 17, 2007 22:07:29 GMT
I've looked into all of the companies you mentioned. I'm a huge fan of Hanwei, personally. My first sword was their fifth-generation Practical Katana and it's STILL my favorite, three years and five "real" swords later. I own three swords by Hanwei, and two by...I have no clue. I've taken one down, and in the habaki found a slip of paper bearing characters that could be Japnese or Chinese, I'm not overly familiar with either written language. Last Legend, I lost interest in when they did away with the Dragon, which I'd been drooling over for ages, trying desperately to save the...$800...something. Then they went and changed their lineup and I haven't had it in me to keep up since. On the level of customization, I could probably handle that myself, which is why the all-black look doesn't offer that strong a drawback, just makes it slightly less attractive than, say, a higher-level Hanwei. The advantage I can respect is budget. Black is just easier, and therefore cheaper. I've dabbled in tsuakamaki, changing the shoddy nylon wrapping on a fairly decent wallhanger I happened across once, and the wrapping itself is easy. I didn't use the little paper triangles, or any level of glue, but my lines are even, everything is tight, and I've yet to shift it. Now, that darn knot is a pain. Got through it somehow, though. To further draw on customization, a friend of mine was actually the one to insist I do all this, after gaining an appreciation for the sword, and finding it a pity that I'd utterly destroyed it, a series of stories for another time, he felt it deserved something better. So he tore off all the wrapping and so forth and sanded it down, filled in all the holes and cracks I'd gained with wood putty, sanded it again, and began applying new paint (spraypaint, we're cheap and impatient). Once we'd gotten the tsuka to a color we could agree on (I only wanted a less-shiny black, naturally there was no same involved on this $20 SLO), I wrapped it with leather I bought at Wal Mart (have I mentioned how cheap we were?) while he tended the saya. It took me a week to do, off and on, but once I sat down to do it it took about an hour. I just couldn't get that knot, is what took the week. A related note to this is the PK came with an untied sageo. I fixed mine myself, and have redone it in different styles several times. So I'm not really concerned about basic furniture. An Oni second could very well lead me to a very fine, budget, custom piece. Who knows? I'm lazy, is all. Ronin does some amazing stuff, but I'm not overly willing to part with something this valuable, struggle with shipping and such, and face the general hassle of paying somebody else to fix what isn't really broken. Right, then, that out of the way, how accurate is the impression that a "factory second" blade has already been made, and is in stock, unless otherwise specifically noted? Understanding that most of Oni's business comes from people placing special orders for this or that different size, color, whatever, while the seconds are merely discarded, being deemed "inferior" quality, I guess I wouldn't have to wait for them to specially make me a less-than-perfect sword? So if they list their seconds with what appear to be quantity on hand denoted, would I be close to right in assuming that ordering one would mean that it would ship fairly quickly? Or should I just "save up and get a _________?" I know how much we all love this "suggestion."
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2007 3:30:42 GMT
like i said, how much are you looking to spend and what exactly are you looking to do with it? Are you looking to use it or display it or both?
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Post by randomnobody on May 18, 2007 4:00:17 GMT
I'm trying to keep my finances as tight as I can. Can't justify more than $300 on a sword at the moment, but I'm willing to make exceptions in outstanding cases.
Primary use of this is mostly display, but I do like to swing my swords around, and I get a bit rough with them, so of course fancy wallhangers are out of the question. If it flies apart, I don't want it. I don't really plan on any matt work in the near future, again, finances, but in the even that I find myslef with some disposable income, I'd like to give it a go, and want to know the sword I already own can stand up to it.
I also like them as an example of history, as a reminder of where we've come from in the terms of warfare and weaponry. To remember the advancements various cultures more or less stumbled across, in some cases, and to bear testament to just how advanced they were, through modern pieces, which are still being made the same basic way, granting different materials.
I don't shop for "beaters," and I won't be buying Albion or the like any time soon, but I do like knowing that what I have is a genuine work of forged steel, capable of handling the same basic tasks the originals it's based off of performed. No, I don't intend on killing anybody or storming any castles with my own small army any time soon, though I have the equipment, and know a few people...anyway, I'm interested in this class of sword for the happy medium it presents. It's a real work of hand-forged steel, borrowing (and adapting) the same (similar) techniques that have been used for centuries to create tools of war, without having to sell my soul to own one.
I'm mainly a history buff, and feel that the age(s) of the sword appeal to me on a higher level than modern warfare, thus my sword collection outstripping my guns by such a degree. The thought that a man once faced a man, both equipped with something like this, and fought with their lives at stake, one-on-one, man-to-man, for glory, honor, pride, loyalty, et cetera, fills me with a sense of the very same principles. I respect these men, and I respect their tools. Buying anything less than what they'd use would be to insult them, and everything they stood for.
I've decided as soon as I get my financial turmoil straightened out, I'll see what's available in second. Hopefully I can get a Kiyomaro with only a moderately flawed wrap, which I'm sure I could fix myself, if need be. Sure, it'll spend most of its time leaning against my headboard, but I'll know that this thing could be doing so much more than just looking good, which it's already doing so well.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2007 4:22:41 GMT
Why not buy a cheness in shirasaya if you are looking at making your own. If you want it mounted then i would suggest buying a cheness, they look nice enough to display and they are solid enough to just swing around sometimes. If you just want that and aren't looking at cutting i would suggest an iaito either from ronin or from cheness.
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Post by randomnobody on May 18, 2007 11:05:59 GMT
I will not own an iato. It defeats the purpose of a sword. Just a personal thing. Chenness I've looked into, their stuff is pretty good. I'm not looking to buy anything for the sole purpose of customization, so shirasaya would be bought for shirasaya, and I'm also exploring these. Having heard many things about Cheness, one way or the other, I really can't find anything to appeal to me there in my price range, either. This could change with the winds but for now I'm really curious about this particular Oni Forge and their swords. --Edit-- Having returned now from the same job that had me leaving in such a hury this morning, impeding me from submitting a post of the level I would typically strive for, and re-reading my own words, I feel I may have come off a bit blunt, perhaps rude. Allow me to clarify. With regard to the iato option, I've looked into them in the past, some of them are very nice. Unfortunately, most of the iato that I would consdier worthwhile to own run about the same price, only slightly cheaper, than a similar sword. Take Hanwei's line, for instance. A brief browsing over at www.casiberia.com shows their Practical Iato line selling at $250. The Practical Katana sells for $275. I'd much rather spend the extra $25 for a sharp, carbon steel blade. Not because I intend to cut anyting, at least, not right away, but should I decide to, I'd already have a sword capble of doing so, rather than having spent $250 on a sword that's only good for learning motions, just to have to spend another $275 on a sword with which I can truly test these motions. $525 versus $275. Easy decision to me. Then we look at Cheness. I could get a 1045 carbon steel, heat treated iato for $169.99. I could also get their "Maru" or "Ranko," moderately-good 1045 carbon steel, through-hardened cutting blade for...$149.99. Or I could kick it up a notch, to meet Hanwei's price point of $250, and find myself holding a clay treated, differentially tempered, cutting sword. Granted the $250 appears to be a sale, but we are talking what I'd buy now. Or, I could go with a Kiyomaro second for $275, and be "happy as a pig in semprini," if you will, with the above-reviewed sword, with a "loose" wrap, which I can easily fix myself. I do believe I would be very pleased with a second of this sword, and will most likely make this my next purchase. Thanks to Marc's fine review, that is. Better yet, how could I forget about SBG's very own Sword Store? Cheness' Kaze is beginning to appeal to me nicely...but I still think I'd like to try out Oni Forge first. They've held my interest longer, though I'm not giving up on Cheness. Hanwei has always been my favorite, the only struggle there is the cost. I'd buy their Shinto, Musashi Daito, or Bushido from By the Sword for $430 (for the first two) and $630 (Bushido), or, their Cromwell (from Kult of Athena now, not yet listed (that I can find) on By the Sword) for $327.25 if I had it, unfortunate that I don't. You'll note from the above that I am quite the bargain hunter. I WILL find the lowest price. So far this is what I've found for the swords I mentioned. Have I made a clear point in a civil manner? I'm tired, it's been a long day. Hope I didn't offend anybody earlier, or even now...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2007 12:28:36 GMT
I will not own an iato. It defeats the purpose of a sword. Just a personal thing. <snip> I'm a newbie to this forum. This is a rather late followup on this thread, so forgive me. I must disagree with your unstated purpose w.r.t. to owning an iaito. Let me state my purpose for owning a sword up front: it's a weapon, not just something pretty to admire and set on one's sideboard (sofa table, what-not-shelf, whatever...). Consequently it needs to be carried and the wearer must know how to deploy it effectively should the need arise, as well as return it to its sheath when the threat is past. Just because there are heavy-handed laws against wearing weapons in some locals does not release the operator from knowing these skills. Unlike a handgun, when you want to practice drawing and reholstering, a sword cannot be "unloaded." However, one can use a drone (the iaito or a bokken) to practice drawing and resheathing, minimizing potential damage to the operator until this skill is mastered. (I've already read two disturbing accounts of shinken malpractice resulting in serious damage to the operator. The live blade is unforgiving.) Take care.
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 18, 2007 17:30:58 GMT
I could be the sarcastic jerk I typically like being online and ask you if you've ever cleaned a loaded gun before. This question relates to your reference of drawing and sheathing/holstering practice and unloaded gun versus live blade.
I bring this up because of course the first step in cleaning a gun is to ensure that it is not loaded. Thus, stemming from your example, the first step in cleaning a sword would be to...uh...whoops?
I've been dabbling in sharp things the better part of my life and, of course, the first thing I learned is sharp=cut=ouch. Luckily, so far the worst I've managed is to catch a falling butterfly knife the wrong way.
I use sharp weapons because knowing the edge is there is what keeps me cautious. Don't worry, I draw and sheathe as well as anybody, if not as pretty in my form. The worst sheathing incident I've suffered was when my PK fell out once when I bent to pick something up while wearing it. The saya has a small crack so it doesn't offer the approporiate hold unless inserted just-so, and it comes loose easily. Anyway, not one to see the sword hitting the floor blade-up with my face mere inches away, I caught the blade, mainly by the spine (can't remember proper term right now, but managed some light cuys across two fingers on my left hand.
Accidents happen, whoever you are, whatever you use. I'd be just as likely to stab myself in the foot with an iato as a shinken, but I'm more apt to avoid doing so with a sword I know is sharp.
I appreciate the concern, but I am well aware of what I am involved in, and excersize nothing less than the greatest care with my sharp and pointies. I just happen to prefer them...sharp and pointy.
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Post by rammstein on Jun 18, 2007 18:28:05 GMT
I see both sides of the argument but I'm going to side with randomnobody on this simply because I've noticed that my actions with a sharp sword are far more controlled and careful (and I THINK bout what I'm doing) than with my blunt ones. Haven't bought a blunt sword for a few years now.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2007 20:28:52 GMT
I could be the sarcastic jerk I typically like being online and ask you if you've ever cleaned a loaded gun before. This question relates to your reference of drawing and sheathing/holstering practice and unloaded gun versus live blade. I bring this up because of course the first step in cleaning a gun is to ensure that it is not loaded. Thus, stemming from your example, the first step in cleaning a sword would be to...uh...whoops? <snip> I use sharp weapons because knowing the edge is there is what keeps me cautious. Don't worry, I draw and sheathe as well as anybody, if not as pretty in my form. The worst sheathing incident I've suffered was when my PK fell out once when I bent to pick something up while wearing it. The saya has a small crack so it doesn't offer the approporiate hold unless inserted just-so, and it comes loose easily. Anyway, not one to see the sword hitting the floor blade-up with my face mere inches away, I caught the blade, mainly by the spine (can't remember proper term right now, but managed some light cuys across two fingers on my left hand. Accidents happen, whoever you are, whatever you use. I'd be just as likely to stab myself in the foot with an iato as a shinken, but I'm more apt to avoid doing so with a sword I know is sharp. I appreciate the concern, but I am well aware of what I am involved in, and excersize nothing less than the greatest care with my sharp and pointies. I just happen to prefer them...sharp and pointy. Thanks for keeping this civil. As with all analogies, they break down at some point. You make a very good point--an iaito must be treated as if it is a live blade. (follow-on edit 6/24/2007, 1:50pm EST) I still prefer my guns unloaded when cleaning and doing drawing/reholstering practice. If I can achieve a similar standard of safety with my practice knives and swords, I will do the same. Having read a few follow-up posts w.r.t. iaitos, I'm still convinced in general that an iaito is a valuable training tool for someone starting out, or in my case, graduating to after exclusvie bokken work for the past few months in formal Shinkendo training. And this is the recommended progression, not in just this discipline, but also in others. For example, in knife fighting a training drone, identical to one's carry folder, is strongly recommended for practicing deployment. I think it sensible to minimize risk during this transitional period (bokken->[iaito->]shinken), since I have many other pursuits which demand fully functional fingers, hands and arms, by choosing an iaito for bottoho. I am probably able to use a shinken at this point, since I do plan to use the same level of caution with the iaito, I know that screw-ups happen. And you've acknowledged this. Since you've done fine with your live blades, you have employed sufficient caution. Not everyone is so conscientious, although they could be. And your arguments that speed/efficiency (if not beauty) come with time are not lost on me. But I am curious. Do you think (as you've intimated) that your development of proficiency was hampered /retarded by not having a iaito? I can't find the thread, but someone mentioned that one japanese sword discipline uses only live blades. If you, or anyone, can recall which one this is, I'd appreciate a summary of their rationale for not using an iaito. This has been an interesting discussion side note.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2007 8:27:11 GMT
[quoteauthor=randomnobody board=swordreviews thread=1168118359 post=1179486359]I will not own an iato. It defeats the purpose of a sword. Just a personal thing.
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 19, 2007 12:09:38 GMT
Again, I haven't watched my sword go into its saya in years. I learned this with sharp swords. My mind will cut you in half faster than my sword, just don't count on me to perform this trick on demand. For the record. I have never held any element of "fear" or "uncertainty" while handling a blade of any type. I've always known exactly what I had and what (not) to do with it. I'll buy a Kiyomaro one day, presently I find myself dreadfully poor.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2007 0:00:52 GMT
Again, I haven't watched my sword go into its saya in years. I learned this with sharp swords. My mind will cut you in half faster than my sword, just don't count on me to perform this trick on demand. For the record. I have never held any element of "fear" or "uncertainty" while handling a blade of any type. I've always known exactly what I had and what (not) to do with it. I'll buy a Kiyomaro one day, presently I find myself dreadfully poor. WOW, You must be the bestest swordsman in the whole entire world. ;D
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 20, 2007 0:22:58 GMT
Nope, but I'm not dead yet! One day I shall travel to the hell that is Australia, and by some magic make my way to your place, then you can beat me silly with your fancy swording. I think we may both quite enjoy that.
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