worldantiques
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Post by worldantiques on Sept 21, 2010 4:34:13 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2010 4:40:38 GMT
Fantastic collection of some less-frequently seen types of armor! Thanks for the links. I'm going to spend some good time looking these over.
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Post by William Swiger on Sept 22, 2010 17:05:46 GMT
Cool pictures. Thanks for posting.
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worldantiques
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Post by worldantiques on Sept 22, 2010 19:17:47 GMT
Fantastic collection of some less-frequently seen types of armor! Thanks for the links. I'm going to spend some good time looking these over. This type of armor has never been thought of as being important and as a result most of it has been allowed to deteriorate to the point that now it is hard to find relatively good examples.
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Brett Whinnen
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Post by Brett Whinnen on Sept 22, 2010 20:16:57 GMT
That is really interesting to see. A 4 in 1 pattern that is butted. Also looking at the head covering you can see that the same expansion techniques are used to expand a row from the European style. Also that they hung the maille in the same way the Europeans did as well.
I am talking about the first album here in case you were wondering. What is the date on when it was made?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2010 21:47:44 GMT
This type of armor has never been thought of as being important and as a result most of it has been allowed to deteriorate to the point that now it is hard to find relatively good examples. Kusari gusoku and tatami-do are/were considered by most to be light, portable armor and (to a point) disposable, right? At least, more disposable than "normal" yoroi. I guess it makes sense since both the artistic value and the battlefield value are lower. It's unfortunate...I really like these pieces. It's like how so many nihonto collectors dismiss kazuuchimono/tabagatana as junk.
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worldantiques
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Post by worldantiques on Sept 23, 2010 19:44:53 GMT
That is really interesting to see. A 4 in 1 pattern that is butted. Also looking at the head covering you can see that the same expansion techniques are used to expand a row from the European style. Also that they hung the maille in the same way the Europeans did as well. I am talking about the first album here in case you were wondering. What is the date on when it was made? Research on Japanese chain armor or kusari gusoku is virtually unknown at least in english and dating kusari is not easy but most of the items pictured seem to be from the 1800s with some being older possibly, also the Japanese were adapt at restoring armors so its entirely possible that an older chain armor was reused by being re lacquered and sewn to new cloth. I have never read any accounts of how long ago this type of armor started being used. All the Japanese chain armor that I have seen used butted links either entirely or in conjunction with twisted links and it seems to have been sewn to a backing in all cases. I have seen 4 different patterns used on kusari gusoku. The so called European 4 in 1 and 3 Japanese patterns. I have read a few times that riveted links were used in Japan and Its probably safe to assume that the Japanese did have knowledge of riveted chain but for some reason they still used butted links.
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worldantiques
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Post by worldantiques on Sept 23, 2010 20:01:33 GMT
This type of armor has never been thought of as being important and as a result most of it has been allowed to deteriorate to the point that now it is hard to find relatively good examples. Kusari gusoku and tatami-do are/were considered by most to be light, portable armor and (to a point) disposable, right? At least, more disposable than "normal" yoroi. I guess it makes sense since both the artistic value and the battlefield value are lower. It's unfortunate...I really like these pieces. It's like how so many nihonto collectors dismiss kazuuchimono/tabagatana as junk. Disposable to the Japanese or samurai? No, A lot of work went into these armors, the cloth had to be made, the iron had to be made, then all the materials had to be turned into the end product. A lot of work went into even the most simple armors. Some karuta, kikko and kusari are of the highest level of workmanship and materials and not low level at all and some were just the most basic type of protection. Natural resources were valued and they had a high level of recycling. Its quite possible that after the end of the samurai era when there were huge amounts of this type of armor just being kept in armories and not needed any more the materials were reused for other items. Disposable to western collectors, yes, western collectors sought out the more traditional styles of armor and for years did not bring back examples of this type of armor except for the higher quality ones. Currently you can see a hundred traditional armors for sale before you will find karuta, kikko or kusari, which are all folding portable armors. The internet has made it possible for individual owners in Japan and buyers in the west to connect and that has brought more examples to the market recently.
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