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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2010 21:47:15 GMT
I'm curious: would a samurai - or any other swordsman in pre-Meiji Japan (merchants and others who were allowed to carry koto - wakizashi and the like) have used a hachiwara or jitte in the off-hand as a parrying weapon? If not, how were they intended to be used? Lohman's has a replica of an antique jitte for about $65, BTW; don't know if anybody makes replica hachiwara.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2010 19:36:21 GMT
C'mon! I can't believe nobody on the forum has an answer...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2010 0:28:28 GMT
I do know it was taught in some schools; Musashi's father taught katana and jitte used at the same time. Don't know if those kinds of schools were open to outsiders though.
M.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2010 5:32:31 GMT
I believe I've seen black and white photographs of a fully armoured Samurai with a Hachiwara dangling from his Obi. From that, I'd say it's a safe assumption that it was used in tandem with his sword, as opposed to by itself (since Hachiwara aren't very long).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2010 2:16:18 GMT
From my limited research I have found consistant references to the hachiwara being used as a parrying tool in the left hand, most expecially if the samurai was facing multiple opponents. Some people refered to it as a "helmet breaker" but others refute this claim and see it use in close combat as a tool for catching on the armour of your opponent and either prising open a gap for your sword or as a method of control. This link had some interesting info on both the hachiwara and jutte and their uses. www.arco-iris.com/George/hachiwara.htmHope this is of some help. regard, MT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2010 3:13:13 GMT
From everything I've read, in addition to being taught in some schools, the jutte (ten hands) was primarily the precursor to the nightstick (tonfa) used by police officers in Japan. The original form of the jutte was created by either Masamune or his father, Munshinai, and resembled its namesake: it had ten prongs instead of just the one and was used more or less to entrap an opponent's weapon or as an aid in grappling.
In addition, it was forbidden to bring a sword into the presence of the Shogun for everyone; the only exception to this was the Shogun's sons and his hatamoto (most trusted vassals). Therefore, the palace guard began using non-sword defense weapons, the jutte most prominent among them.
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worldantiques
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Post by worldantiques on Aug 25, 2010 7:59:03 GMT
I'm curious: would a samurai - or any other swordsman in pre-Meiji Japan (merchants and others who were allowed to carry koto - wakizashi and the like) have used a hachiwara or jitte in the off-hand as a parrying weapon? If not, how were they intended to be used? Lohman's has a replica of an antique jitte for about $65, BTW; don't know if anybody makes replica hachiwara. Jutte or jitte in the Edo period were worn by Samurai police as a symbol of their office and as a non lethal weapon, they were also used as a symbol of official business by various civil servants such as tax collectors. Police in the Edo period were from the samurai class except for the lowest level operatives, all civil offices were controlled by the samurai class as a way to give the formally warrior class something to do other than fighting. Hachiwari on the other hand are harder to classify, some are quite sharp and would inflict a wicked square wound and some are actually more like a tessen or club like weapon and not sharp at all. Having held a few of the sharp hachiwari I can see them being able to stab between the small openings of a samurai armor in close quarter fighting. The tessen type of hachiwari could have been carried by non samurai as a weapon but there is just not much information available that I could find. Here is a good book on the subject of samurai law and order by Don Cunningham and some jutte and hachiwari pics. books.google.com/books?id=g5BP7DGuNFsC&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=don+cunningham+samurai+police&source=bl&ots=s2c-rj2dYd&sig=vQpX_swr0DdqJPsi3cmDiR8KeDU&hl=en&ei=NsV0TJLlGo6inQf_1JCcBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CC0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=don%20cunningham%20samurai%20police&f=false
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2010 13:44:04 GMT
i find hachiwara quite interesting i would love to get one or have one made in a tanto or wakizashi kochirae. sharp hachiwara exist great news
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worldantiques
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Post by worldantiques on Aug 25, 2010 18:37:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2010 22:25:26 GMT
Here's one hachiwari of the type definitely meant as an impact weapon. www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/others28.htmlAs for the little one in shirasaya and the one in the unryu koshirae, I could definitely see those being used as yoroidoshi. It seems they would serve that purpose better than as striking weapons, as it seems there is little mass to them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2010 0:05:41 GMT
It looks as though the hachiwara is very much overlooked. I have not been able to find anyone that makes replicas. Perhaps the reason is that there is no market for them. Maybe overshadowed by their more recognisable and famous cousins the Katana, Wakizashi etc.
If anyone could supply these to avid collectors of Samurai weapons they could do very well. A niche market that no one is currently supplying.
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worldantiques
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Post by worldantiques on Aug 26, 2010 4:02:34 GMT
Here's one hachiwari of the type definitely meant as an impact weapon. www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/others28.htmlAs for the little one in shirasaya and the one in the unryu koshirae, I could definitely see those being used as yoroidoshi. It seems they would serve that purpose better than as striking weapons, as it seems there is little mass to them. Many of the more elaborate jutte were not really meant to be used but were actually a symbol for people to see much like a badge. If someone was carrying one it meant that they were an official of the samurai government.
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worldantiques
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Post by worldantiques on Aug 26, 2010 4:07:18 GMT
It looks as though the hachiwara is very much overlooked. I have not been able to find anyone that makes replicas. Perhaps the reason is that there is no market for them. Maybe overshadowed by their more recognisable and famous cousins the Katana, Wakizashi etc. If anyone could supply these to avid collectors of Samurai weapons they could do very well. A niche market that no one is currently supplying. From time to time various types of samurai weapons show up on Ebay and on Yahoo Japan..here is another example of the tessen style hachiwari and a tessen fan.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2010 9:39:56 GMT
Many of the more elaborate jutte were not really meant to be used but were actually a symbol for people to see much like a badge. If someone was carrying one it meant that they were an official of the samurai government. Jutte, yes, but hachiwari, too? That is something I've never heard.
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worldantiques
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Post by worldantiques on Aug 27, 2010 5:55:42 GMT
Many of the more elaborate jutte were not really meant to be used but were actually a symbol for people to see much like a badge. If someone was carrying one it meant that they were an official of the samurai government. Jutte, yes, but hachiwari, too? That is something I've never heard. There is not as much info on hachiwari as there is on jutte, I have never read that a hachiwari was used or worn by any particular type of Japanese person..I have only read this about jutte.
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