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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2010 19:05:30 GMT
My feelings on relocation, aside from me risking injury or death from a bite, is that I am just giving my problem to someone somewhere else, like finding a ticking time bomb and moving it down the block instead of defusing it I saw the snake like a computer virus, it had deleted useful programs (frogs) and was a threat to me, family members and our dogs so I deleted it. The frogs had been eating crickets that were swarming, so unless more frogs show up, or I can frog-nap some more frogs and bring them here, the crickets will continue to be a nuisance The snake, in general, has its own nitch in the ecosystem eating many pests. I would not consider them as ticking time bombs but useful members of the chain of life, which is why I go for relocation. Though of course relocating is done to an area where your not dumping the snake onto other people but into wild land. As I mentioned if you bring in more frogs, you are creating a lure for more snakes. Small bull snakes will eat the crickets too, btw. It becomes a complex system of prey and predator having wild life in your yard. Finding the right mix and balance takes a lot of work. Adding one thing creates issues with another. Finding what is acceptable for us humans is not always easy. Of course as I pointed out I have the skills and experience to relocate, while you may not. In your case or others not used to handling reptiles killing the snake is probably the wise move. Especially having dogs and family to worry about. Though as I mentioned always be sure to to keep safe distance. If you miss and it starts taking off under stuff let the snake escape rather than put yourself at risk while it is making a get away into hard to get places.
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Post by sparky on Aug 14, 2010 23:50:28 GMT
I understand completely why you killed the rattler. My Grandfather and I were clearing some brush near his house, goodness forever ago, and next thing we know there are about thirty copperhead snakes boiling up out of a hole. (I didn't know I could jump that high and far, come to think of it never have since.) Our weapon of choice was the common garden hoe, dispatched them very quick and clean.
About eating your frogs, we have installed a bunch of bird houses in the trees behind our house. We lookout back one time and were like what the heck is that in the bird house??? Turned out to be a 4-1/2' black snake. I don't know if it got the Mom and Dad bird but it got the eggs. It was stuck in the bird house cause it's belly was swollen up and wouldn't fit through the hole. I got the ladder out, cause these houses are about thirty feet up, opened the side and got him out. He was a catch and release because he wasn't venomous.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2010 3:18:10 GMT
I put the hose down, and ran back into the house trying to figure out what weapon to grab, I wrote off the guns, since I was scared that if I missed, the snake would run away and would still be on the loose I had to LOL at this part, 'cause snakes doesn't has legs!!! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2010 7:43:33 GMT
I've had to kill a few in my time. My grandfather's favourite saying was; "Sometimes a man just has to kill his own snakes!" Usually I use my replica 1847 Colt's Walker. It does the job fine. Once I had to kill a copperhead with my boot knife. Blasted thing had my two year old daughter cornered by the fence. Haven't killed on in about 16 years though....they don't live in Alaska!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2010 20:42:51 GMT
i would have used the famous weapon Riki Tiki Tavi.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 0:53:37 GMT
I had to give you a karma just because the title made me chuckle
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 6:18:24 GMT
Decapitation is actually a fairly long, painful death for reptiles. Many snakes retain cognitive function for over an hour after decapitation. That includes the ability to recognize and identify the sensation known as pain.
My feeling is, if it's not bothering you, why kill it? Over 75% of snakebites occur when the snakes are attacked or molested by the "victim". That means that 75% of snakebites wouldn't occur if people would just leave them the hell alone. If some random person walks into your house at whatever time of day and (whether they hurt you or not) starts prodding or tossing you around, wouldn't you lash out?
If I were faced with a venomous snake, you know what I would grab? I'll give two answers, here. One is what I, personally, would grab. The other is what others should do.
1) I have something called a snake hook. It's a long pole with a dull hook on the end of it made for scooping up venomous snakes at a safe distance. I would grab that, scoop them up, then place them in a bucket and move them far away from people. Rattlers don't tend to go far from where they are dropped.
Wanna know how to make a snake hook? Go to the hardware store and buy a paint roller and one of those loooong poles that they screw on to. Cut the roller part off of the hook, screw it onto the pole it was designed for, and there you have it.
2) Grab a phone and call animal control. They capture and relocate.
If one is so afraid of snakes hurting them or their families, why make it a point to put yourself where you could very well become part of that 75% statistic? Leave it be or have it moved.
For people with kids and pets they worry about, do this: Teach your kids from a young age to avoid the snakes and where they hide. Just like you teach them not to grab hot pans and not to stick forks in electrical sockets. It's a part of parenting, especially when people live so close to the natural habitat of these animals. Get your dogs snake training. There are people all over the place who will train dogs to understand that the "leave it" command applies to snakes even when not spoken. Dogs will tend to be better about that then people.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 7:35:58 GMT
My feeling is, if it's not bothering you, why kill it? Over 75% of snakebites occur when the snakes are attacked or molested by the "victim". That means that 75% of snakebites wouldn't occur if people would just leave them the hell alone. If some random person walks into your house at whatever time of day and (whether they hurt you or not) starts prodding or tossing you around, wouldn't you lash out? If I were faced with a venomous snake, you know what I would grab? I'll give two answers, here. One is what I, personally, would grab. The other is what others should do. 1) I have something called a snake hook. It's a long pole with a dull hook on the end of it made for scooping up venomous snakes at a safe distance. I would grab that, scoop them up, then place them in a bucket and move them far away from people. Rattlers don't tend to go far from where they are dropped. Wanna know how to make a snake hook? Go to the hardware store and buy a paint roller and one of those loooong poles that they screw on to. Cut the roller part off of the hook, screw it onto the pole it was designed for, and there you have it.
2) Grab a phone and call animal control. They capture and relocate. If one is so afraid of snakes hurting them or their families, why make it a point to put yourself where you could very well become part of that 75% statistic? Leave it be or have it moved. These are very good suggestions about snake handling and statistics that are quite true. Obviously you have some experience hyoujinsama. I had considered on making the same suggestion of how to make a snake hook but figured not to suggest it considering if people didn't know about them then they may end up part of that statistic. A typical "professional" snake stick Another method of course is a snake pole that uses a loop of cord/rope etc Instruction on how to make one of these can be found at thehorseshoeinghousewife.blogspot.com/2008/08/snake-catching-pole.htmlHere is a picture of a "professional" version of this sort of poles Though as I mentioned before when posting I would catch and release. I don't recommend this if you don't know what your doing, since as hyoujinsama pointed out that is when most snake bites occur. In general rattle snakes don't want to attack people, it is a waste of their energy and venom. Things that are important for them to survive. The only time they tend to attack is when they are actually only defending themselves. If you live in an area that gets lots of rattlers I would suggest you learn to use a snake stick/pole encourage road runners to come on your property and get some bull snakes to adopt your place as part of their range. I would say if your getting rattlers the best thing you can do is educate yourself as much as you can about them. You may even find that you don't really mind them so much after it is all done. Really they are amazing animals. Come on this cute face wouldn't lie to you, they just want to live their lives too.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 8:01:29 GMT
These work well too: I've shot vermin indoors with these including some possums that got into the attic without causing any collateral damage to my house. The effective range is pretty close - you want to be within 10-15 feet of your target. They make several different calibers - though I have found that the .38/.357s work best. Just tossing another option out there for those who would not be comfortable decapitating a snake, using a catch pole, or don't have animal control available in their area.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 9:00:38 GMT
About eating your frogs, we have installed a bunch of bird houses in the trees behind our house. We lookout back one time and were like what the heck is that in the bird house??? Turned out to be a 4-1/2' black snake. I don't know if it got the Mom and Dad bird but it got the eggs. It was stuck in the bird house cause it's belly was swollen up and wouldn't fit through the hole. I got the ladder out, cause these houses are about thirty feet up, opened the side and got him out. He was a catch and release because he wasn't venomous. Yes snakes loveeeee bird eggs. It is like how women love chocolate, or cats love cat nip. This is part of why I mention one might consider what you might be doing to attract the snakes rather than killing them for being their natural selves and coming for the dinner you provide. This is where if you live in a place that has snakes often your best off educating yourself on the snakes as much as you can. If you learn why snakes behave why they do you can assess what on your property is attracting them. Then possibly remove or limit that attraction. Nothing to bring them to your place then no need to worry about them being there or having to deal with them, however you decide is your preferred method. BTW Odingaard mentioned offering options, another option that is not leathal but quite effective especially if your out in your yard watering with a hose. Water. Cold water is quite effective against cold blooded animals. This kicks in their most basic instincts and will do everything they can to get out of the way of whatever is making them loose their body heat so fast.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 9:10:02 GMT
Snake guy here. My personal weapon of choice, is Midwest's M1 snake tongs tongs.com/collapsiblem140inchtong.aspx I just got this for a trip to Costa Rica this winter. Hoping to find Black Headed Bushmasters (Lachesis melanocephala). I don't blame you for killing a potentially dangerous snake on your property. It's quite understandable. Just becareful handling it after killing as they can still bite as a reflex. I'd becareful about who you tell this story to though. I'm not sure what state you're in, but you can be fined in some states for killing a Timber. Timbers pretty much only den in one spot in the winter. Young find their way back to dens in the late summer and fall by following the sent of adults. Because of this, it can be hard to establish a new den. Also, Timbers take about 4-5 years to become sexually mature. The females only reproduce every 2-5 years, and have small liters (3-12) and usually only one will survive to reproduce again. Because of this, it doesn't take much to whipe out a population of Timber Rattlesnakes. I know some people might find it hard to want to conserve a rattlesnake, but they're actually really good indicator species, and play a very important role in the ecosystem. Timber Rattlesnakes (Well most US Pit Vipers in general) play the role of verminators of small mammals, and are interned preyed upon by Coyotes, badgers, skunks, kingsnakes, Birds of Prey (In some areas, a hawk's diet and consist of up to 75% snakes!) "Ratsnakes" (Refering to the Genus Pantherophis here) actually don't prey as heavily upon rodents as Pit Vipers do. Pit Vipers are called such, because a heat sensitive pit that allowed them to sense warm blooded rodents on cool nights. Though some Pit Vipers do prey upon lizards and frogs when they're young (Especially Copperheads and Cottonmouths, Genus Agkistrodon) most prey on mammals as adults. For this reason, I HIGHLY doubt that Timber was eating your frogs. I'd keep an eye out for Watersnakes (Genus Nerodia) and Garter and Ribbonsnakes (Genus Thamnophis). Or even possibly a Ratsnake of some species (Genus Pantherophis). These guys absolutely love frogs, toads, and small fish (The first three, not the Ratsnake, though they've been know to take all the above mentioned prey). Though, probably the number one reason you're not noticing the frogs is probably because it's getting late into the year. It's no longer breeding season for most Amphibians and Reptiles. Just some food for though, from someone well "in the know" about reptiles, especially Timber Rattlesnakes. I've helped students at OSU conduct population research on them a few times. They're truely beautiful animals and part of our American heritage. Remember that flag "Don't Tread on Me"? That's a Timber Rattler on it. Again, I'm not condeming you. My sister kills them on her land when I'm not there, and I don't blame her. She has two year old after all. Just thought I'd give a little bit of information on the subject. Hope I didn't upset anyone. PS, sorry for any typos. I'm REALLY tired. Been up all night. PPS, if anyone's interested in reading about my trip to Costa Rica, and the snakes I'll be looking for, you can read about it here. blaketyler.blogspot.com/2010/08/costa-rica.html
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 9:13:28 GMT
I had to finish a small, about a foot and a half bull snake off about a month ago at work. People thought it was a rattler and chopped it into several pieces with a shovel. the head and about an inch of body were writhing around trying to get away, and its mouth was opening and closing. I stuck my pocket knife through its head. Was a quicker death that the one my coworkers had left it to.As for the animal control option,where i live most likely the sheriff would show up and just shoot the thing.
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Post by Dave(utilityslave) on Aug 17, 2010 11:46:16 GMT
My father hated all snakes because they are inherently evil......the bible says so. This rigid thinking and lack of tolerence was a major problem I had with my father. He refused to be enlightened once he made up his mind......right or wrong.
My mother can walk up to a venomous snake and calmly pick it up and teach those around her about their anatomy, physiology, and morphology. However, if while doing so, a "waterbug" flies anywhere within her sensory perceptions, she may completely melt down, forget about the snake in her hands, and start swinging for all she is worth at the harmless big flying roach that is threatening her sanity. She has the same reaction to crickets but not grasshoppers or locusts. The urge to strike out at things we fear is a learned response that we tend to adopt early in our development and can become a phobic response......without reason.
You should certainly respect a venomous animal and give it plenty of room to move away from you or relocate it if you have the skill set. You should do the same for an unknown dog. There are those that would shoot the dog without a second thought because it "might" have been dangerous and it's only a dog. For some this is a heart felt response and for others it's just an excuse to shoot/kill something.
I have on several occasions come on the scene where a possum is holding an entire group of human beings hostage because it is in their trash cans or garage. It is in fact not actually offering any threat to them but their fear is real enough and the animals life would be forfiet if any of them had a weapon or the courage to approach the dangerous beast. Imagine their surprise when I walk up to the possum and grab it by the tail and carry it off so that it and its victims are safe.
I have jumped just as high as the next guy when surprised by an unexpected snake say right between my feet but my first coherent though after the scare is how to make the situation safe for me and the snake. My second thought is usually do I want to catch the snake or let it be. I'm the same way with turtles, lizards, and salamanders. I enjoy collecting and observing them for a little while then releasing them back to their natural environment.
I can remember several times when I have seen someone go out of their way to harm a snake just because it's a snake........swerving their car to run over one........slamming on the brakes to grind them into the asphalt...........beating them repeatedly while on a walk in the woods in the snakes home.........etc.
There are times when the responsible thing might be to kill an animal but I think those times should be the exception.
Most land snakes live their lives in a very small range........usually within a 1 to 3 mile area. If you don't want a particular snake in your area, you can move it a few miles away and the chances of ever seeing that snake again in your area are very slim. Cohabitation can seem dangerous but remember with education you may see a better way.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 20:04:13 GMT
Wow, lots of posts to reply to today, first, benaddi, thank you for the karma, but you should also give one to DomT (inchmindriot) since he used to have that in his signature line, and when this happened I couldn't resist using it for my thread title. And a give-back karma to you too, good sir ;D Hyoujinsama, I don't know where you live, but around here, taking even the slightest chance of me or anyone getting bitten by this snake, and worrying about the welfare of this snake is just crazy talk , and animal control? It's called a 12 guage If you called the PD, they would probably laugh and ask you if your trigger finger was broke, or you were out of ammo, they would expect you to take care of it yourself If you were lady-folk, then they might come out and shoot it for you Even if it wasn't dangerous, I would kill it anyway so I could eat it In any case, it's life is as meaningless to me as a mosquito or a roach, or a computer virus Blake, don't worry, you post was educational, and definitely not offensive in any way If I ever find myself living in a state where the government is so stupid as to make laws preventing people from protecting themselves against dangerous animals, I will either leave or do my best to have the appropriate people thrown out of their public office on their $emprini I know it happens in some places, but to my knowledge Oklahoma is still a state where folks can protect themselves against dangerous critters of all sorts In some places, you wonder when some loony-toon will pass a law against swatting mosquitoes We don't have bull snakes here that I know of, but we have king snakes, and I have relocated them rather than kill them since they eat rodents and venomous snakes too Unfortunately they give my mom heck in her chicken house, since eggs don't run away, they make an easy meal for the king-snake We also have plenty of copperheads and some cottonmouths, which are shown no mercy either, not to mention a species of giant poisonous centipede, black widow and brown recluse spiders, and scorpions Rural Oklahoma is no place for wimps!
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Post by YlliwCir on Aug 17, 2010 20:24:43 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 22:55:30 GMT
Two pix of huge rattlesnake killed in St. Augustine, Florida There is some discussion over the true size of this huge serpent, but for sure it is much, much larger than the one I skewered I read it would have had enough venom to kill 40 men Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 22:56:17 GMT
Second pic Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2010 1:24:11 GMT
Blake, don't worry, you post was educational, and definitely not offensive in any way If I ever find myself living in a state where the government is so stupid as to make laws preventing people from protecting themselves against dangerous animals, I will either leave or do my best to have the appropriate people thrown out of their public office on their $emprini I know it happens in some places, but to my knowledge Oklahoma is still a state where folks can protect themselves against dangerous critters of all sorts In some places, you wonder when some loony-toon will pass a law against swatting mosquitoes We don't have bull snakes here that I know of, but we have king snakes, and I have relocated them rather than kill them since they eat rodents and venomous snakes too Unfortunately they give my mom heck in her chicken house, since eggs don't run away, they make an easy meal for the king-snake We also have plenty of copperheads and some cottonmouths, which are shown no mercy either, not to mention a species of giant poisonous centipede, black widow and brown recluse spiders, and scorpions Rural Oklahoma is no place for wimps! Awesome, just saw you were in OK. I use to live in Stillwater. You probably already got that, when I said I helped out OSU students though. There was also a couple of things I wanted to say/clear up, but was to tired to last night. First is that if you don't have have the experience with handling venomous snakes (Most people don't, and that's perfectly fine), and you can't call someone, then killing it is perfectly fine in my book. That's if it's on your property. If you're out hiking in a State or National Park, that's another thing. Second is on Bull Snakes. You do infact have Bull Snakes in your area. Bull snakes belong to the Genus Pituophis, as well as Pine and Gopher Snakes. All of these species feed heavily on mammals, though the young will feed on lizards. Other snakes have been documented as being eaten by Pituophis, but that's very rare. Probably about as common as a human eating another human. If you want a snake eating snake then King Snakes and Milk Snakes are the way to go (Genus Lampropeltis). That's all. Just a bit more information.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2010 13:04:12 GMT
Here in Florida, we have some serious issues with non-indigenous snakes being let loose, and thriving. I'm all for relocating the varmint eaters, but when it's big enough to grab and eat toddlers, it's time to grab a katana and go Conan on that big fella. For other spurious critters, (mice, palmetto bugs, brown recluse spiders,) my Easton ABS hockey stick lets me rid the house of pests and have fun scoring a goal at the same time. As in "Look at the huge freakin' roach! SMACKO!!! Gooooooooal!"
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Aug 19, 2010 13:41:15 GMT
Hey, all else aside, if you can 'go Conan' with a katana... youz got SKILLZ, dude! More on-topic.... I am a big supporter of the 'don't kill unless you have to' mentality. I wouldn't hesitate to kill a snake if I ever NEEDED too, of course... but I find it hard to imagine many likely scenarios where that would take place. My grandfather is one of those 'there ain't no good snake but a dead snake' types, and remains so no matter my logical persuasions. One of my biggest regrets of my young life is when I found a snake in his backyard and excitedly ran and told him, and then had to watch him chop it up merely for being curled up under a rotting board some 150 meters from the house. Sucks to be a snake these days, doesn't it? And btw, the thread title is epic... now you have me wanting to play MGS:3 again, lol. Odingaard- I shall forever hate you, my good sir. Good job! (seriously, that was awesome... I'll have to use it... I nearly killed the computer screen. ) EDIT- DUH!!!!!!!!!! I completely forgot to answer the main question! lol As for what weapon I would pick up in times of need for snakely defense, I'd use my $33 Musashi Tatsu-Maki/Tomoe katana (now ain't that a mouthful! ). It's functional as heck, and a GREAT chopper, and cheap enough that a nick or two from bones (ouch!) or rocks in the ground wouldn't worry me. If the snake's strike range was longer than the 27" blade of the TM/T, however, I'd resort to a garden implement or sorts, since they have long poles for reach. -Slayer
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