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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2007 3:55:06 GMT
Hi All,
I was so impressed by the performance of the 9260 katanas that I have contacted Paul about possibly doing a side by side performance evaluation (destructive tests included) between an L6 bainite martensite blade and a 9260 blade. I would be putting up my own L6 Bainite/Martensite from Oni Forge. I believe the results are that valuable...
the only problem is that my sword is around .22/.23 thick while the cheness is .25 thick...so the cheness may have more niku. Would this invalidate that value of the tests to you guys?
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2007 4:23:19 GMT
I think its close enough. I would like to see it. We can then evaluate the test further from there.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2007 11:11:58 GMT
that would be awesome. can't wait!
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2007 11:14:16 GMT
Hi All, I was so impressed by the performance of the 9260 katanas that I have contacted Paul about possibly doing a side by side performance evaluation (destructive tests included) between an L6 bainite martensite blade and a 9260 blade. I would be putting up my own L6 Bainite/Martensite from Oni Forge. I believe the results are that valuable... the only problem is that my sword is around .22/.23 thick while the cheness is .25 thick...so the cheness may have more niku. Would this invalidate that value of the tests to you guys? I am very, very ,very interested in this topic. Because your blade is L6 it should come out the winner even though the Cheness is a little thicker ! Should we start the betting now(or is that illegal) ? ;D
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2007 21:20:34 GMT
This is one of the things I love about the mindset of the people in this forum. Test everything, take nothing for granted.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2007 11:00:20 GMT
I am always taken aback by the generosity of people to offer their (very valuable) swords for durability testing - it is a great service to the sword community.
I would love to see these results also!
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2007 11:30:30 GMT
I'll have $10 on the L6 thanx very generous offer iblis! you da man!
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2007 14:07:03 GMT
Hi,
If this sword is tested and it turns out it is equally or less durable than the 9260, it (to me) is not worth the money asked...and that knowledge is very valuable to me.
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Post by hotspur on May 14, 2007 15:48:01 GMT
Folk still seem to be missing the foundation of the L6 banite legacy. Certainly strength was part of the inspiration but the aesthetic potential was as important. In a very great sense, it's still a comparison of apples to oranges. I have yet to see an L6 blade come through Loren, or MAS, that matches the activity present in Howard Clark's work. No doubt that they may someday approach it. Comparing either to the 9260 blades from Cheness may seem an interesting excersise but it takes a lot of factors out of true context. Stress testing, in general, is entertaining and has some value but does not really speak to how the majority of the sword community will actually use their swords. The sad part about an Oni L6 to Cheness 9260 comparison is that the rest of the packages show so much more disparity. Cheness has been stepping up to the plate of improvement but there still seem to be some growing pains. They certainly may offer a great value for some and are worth considering in their price range but if direct comparisons are to be drawn, all factors must be counted and it's not a typical revelation I see judged well by many. Quality sources are well able to do their own quality control. A consumer wanting to do so is more than welcome to spend their own dime. What else does such really provide than entertainment for the spectators and grandstanding for the promoter? To Bill Tsafa, have you done serious bending tests on any of your swords to see when they will eventually take a set? Have you gone past that to the fracture of a blade and done qualitive grain analysis? Have you done your thousands of strikes to your pell with your Generation 2 katana (Last Legend)? If not, why not? Again, I don't really see anything wrong with testing but I don't see a lot of real information coming from a lot of them. What seems like qualitive research is really pretty routine from good sources. Folk like Cliff Stamp try to keep things in context and that is a good thing. However, they wouldn't be my first choice for and overall apprasial of what any product has to offer. WOW!!!!!! DID YOU SEE THAT!!!!!! Lol Cheers Hotspur; I'm sure such a test would be interesting to the masses but not well understood by some
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2007 18:37:58 GMT
I did a bending test with the Valiant BlackPrince, it set at about 40 degrees off center. I was able to correct it by going back the other way. Same with my Windlass Classic Medieval. I think that mettle of these blades is way to soft and prefer a much stiffer blade. My Viciacraft lionheart and Valiant Degesee will net bend an inch off center, the blade is too thick in the cross-section. Yes the compromise is that stiffer blades can break if overflexed, but thats how I like it. I don't like floppy blades.
I don't use the Gen 2 Katana on the tirepell because the pell is a stress test, the katana does no have a full tang and is designed for a slicing method of cutting, not hacking. I don't use my rapiers on the tire pell either because they too are not designed for hacking. They are designed to thrust into unarmed opponents.
An arming sword, longsword, saber is designed to hack using not just the strength of the arms but also the power transfer from the lower body or the momentum of the horse if you are riding. These weapons are designed for the battlefield, rather then a civilian setting, where they will have to contend against heavier Shields, maces, axes, polearms, etc. and also fully armored opponents.
So what does the pell test proove, well if nothing else its a comparison test, I have some swords that have survived thousands upon thousands of strikes and I have one that broke in just 30 strikes. Which one would you prefer to own?
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Post by hotspur on May 14, 2007 19:49:44 GMT
Hi Bill,
I own swords of a great variety, both in initial cost and form. Quite honestly, only two of those are examples that wouldn't serve well in a historical context.
One is a sword designed by Oscar Kolombatovich and was a user through a good part of the 1980s. I have not used it for more than a show and tell example of the progression in modern reproductions. The tang is pencil thin and the whole sword is only rather a fanciful rendition of a historical example. Yet, it survived enthuisiast Patrick Kelly's beating on mail and plate covered sides of beef. This was a primary user of his for several years. I bought it as an example of the past.
The second is a first run Hanwei Godfred. I got a great price on it. I had more than battlefield use of it before the blade broke. Funny thing about it and others (professional bladesmiths and swordmakers) are in good agreement, flexing a blade doesn't tell you much until it takes a set or breaks. I had found the blade to have a fine amount of flex for it's type but when the blade broke, a really horrible heat treat was evident. Even the person that did the analysis of the broken blade was suprised that such a crappy blade exhibited pretty good flex.
All this information is out there, I am making nothing up.
The rest of my users range from Windlass to Arms & Armor and all would have been quite acceptable in their original contexts, most of them superior. I have been using a Hanwei Practical Katana over the course of four years and it has had no real issues. It has likely seen a good bit more use than it would have in a historical context.
Since when were Japanese style mounts not used on battlefield weapons? Since when were flexible blades that took a set not battlefield weapons? Since when were swords that broke not a part of everyday life?
Your pell testing does have some merit in testing fittings and general construction but for the most part you are getting a just good workout. Swords got used up in history.
I tend to stick to reliable makers and if they see merit in sharing their qualifications in metallurgy by displaying destructive testing, that's all well and good. You may feel your pell tests show more than I feel they do, it is a simple matter of opinion.
By the way, a friend mentioned that your webpages set off his Zone Alarm when browsing them. Thoughts on that?
What's my point? That a heads up appraisal of any two swords is often flawed, in one context or another. Most particulary those skewed by modern perceptions and expectations.
Cheers
Hotspur; don't stop learning, that's the important part
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2007 19:56:13 GMT
I don't like the term 'hacking' being used to refer to the intended usage behind european swords... it's got a negative connotation. Anyone can hack with a sword. Not everyone can cut.
European swords historically were just as effective cutters as japanese swords and vice-versa. Both types of swords made good slicing weapons as well. For reference, 'slicing' refers to placing the balde against part of the opponent's body, and then drawing or pushing the edge across it. Watching ANY tameshigiri video quickly reveals that this is NOT what japanese sword practitioners are doing when they cut tatami or bamboo- They're cutting.
There's also a video of James Williams using the Albion Knight to cut tatami. European swords, especially those of types X through XIII, and most of the others as well, were excellent cutters, not 'hackers'.
My point? Hit your pell with your katana. It'll be fine.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2007 19:58:05 GMT
Hotspur brings up a good point though. L6 is best when done by Howard Clark.
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Post by jw on May 14, 2007 23:37:30 GMT
Does Howard do the L6 blades for Bugei?
I think a good comparison would be the Kaze and the L6 blade, the through hardened against a diff hardened is apples and oranges...
But all in all still a very interesting test, made even better if direct comparisons between the two were avoided to keep the confusion and misinterpretations down...
Looking forward to the tests!
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2007 0:23:18 GMT
ooh I can't wait for these tests to happen, when will they take place and then be put up on the site? And cold some one send me a link to the l6 swords I want to check them out
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2007 4:54:38 GMT
Many variables were very inteligentely brought up and certainly have their merit, however, the fact that this test is "interesting" (I think) is reason enough to do it. ;D
may I suggest the oniyuri as a candidate representing cheness? From what I've seen, it is an inbetween of the kaze(sharp) and the tenchi (tough)
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2007 5:12:12 GMT
naa i say go for comparing it with the sgc blades "strong as the tenchi and sharp if not sharper than the kaze" I'm really interested in what it's capable of ne way.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2007 9:18:56 GMT
What else does such really provide than entertainment for the spectators and grandstanding for the promoter? I, for one, am going to take into account the tests and reviews on this site when I decide to purchase a new sword. I feel that these tests help bring these swords to a level of known quality and I feel secure in putting my meager student dollars towards such a sword.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2007 14:41:48 GMT
Any test that helps me understand a potential purpose, now matter how "unuseful" it is viewed by some it tell me so much. Watching paul wail away on bottles and branches and others doing the same, tells me more than the makers tell you alot of the time. Their tests are better than the quality control tests of alot of companies. Can't wait to see this.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2007 1:09:34 GMT
Agreed, so which sword is it gonna be?
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