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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2010 5:17:55 GMT
I'd like to quote Mr. "Chris" Zhou Zheng Wu-- "Chinese people are capable of making the best as well as the worst. They are profit-oriented and would make the least effort. This kind of work cannot give me satisfaction. Not only because it is a pity for those buyers who themeslves practice martial arts, but the future of our country is also wasted in the hands of these manufacturers. Most of all, it is no longer a craftsmanship, but a mass production."That said, I bought a "Chris Zhou Hand Forged Emperor Han Wu Chinese Sword" through SwordNArmory. The multiple-layered blade was touted as having a "distinct pattern on the surface..." What I got was a blade that looks like a polished stainless steel steak knife. If anyone from Zheng Wu Forge can explain this anomoly, then please give an answer.  Here is another strange anomoly. The plastic-sealed hanging tag for this sword reads "SC-295." I have two cheap swords-- of the type Mr. Zheng Wu decries-- which have similar hanging tags, both starting with "SC-" etc. These are the "official" Red Cliff movie swords, replete with cast zink alloy fittings and blades cut from 1/4 plain steel bar stock... both obviously made by Mr. Zheng Wu's so-called high class company.  So, what's the deal with something that's supposed to be exceptional but is not, and something that's cheap and looks cheap yet made by the same Longquan company?  And worst of all, I have this Masters of Fire repro sitting on a Hanwei $50 sword stand that looks nicer than the sword.  I'm not saying it's a bad sword, but the description and hype, perhaps by the seller, does not match the sword itself. Mr. Zheng Wu is maybe a very concienctious craftsman, but truth in advertising his products becomes a serious question when a buyer spends serious moola.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2010 8:04:06 GMT
Hell, your not the only one out there...I feel the same way too! I'm glad you said that too before I did cuz I myself would have sooner or later say the same damn thing! Being Chinese myself, I feel ashamed that for the last 6 or so years lurking around this forum and SFI, that a quality Chinese sword has yet to be produced (with the exception of the Rodell Jian) by a Chinese production company at an affordable price! These companies keep WHORING OUT katanas ,western, and swords from almost every culture yet they forget their own roots! As I said in another post maybe it's a sign of the times (economies rough, the sword market is not so great, Chinese swords are not in demand) whatever, the point is that from all these years I've always seen a reasonable demand for functional Chinese swords but we have always been ignored! ;D Geez what a long post, I just wanted to let it all out cuz I've kept it in so long! Just went to SF Chinatown last weekend and had fun laughing at all the crummy SLOs there are! Some nice masahiros, ryumons, and Paul Chens though! I rreeaallyy can't wait for that Rodell dao to come out! It will be the first FUNCTIONAL Chinese sword I'll buy |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2010 10:48:14 GMT
Hello, Turok Sorry to hear you feel the same way. That makes two of us out of a whole bunch of beleagured customers who want to support the Longquan sword-forging tradition BUT are not getting the product they thought they were. These smiths are good, maybe great. Historically, they were far ahead of European swordmakers. You can actually trace the Han Dynasty sword as related to the cruxiform sword of the Crusades. A modified form of the sword crossed Asia with the Saka, who became the Massagetae, who became the Alans, who passed the design on as "the Black Sea" style. I'd like to retrieve the quality of these past swords. The Longquan makers have the ability, but their marketing is incredibly poor. For instance, they sell a folded-steel blade outfitted with pot-metal zink fittings. Are they nuts? For what?-- another twenty bucks, they could use brass or copper and make a sword with a decent provenance-- something Longquan could be proud of. But, as you can tell from my post above, the whole thing is a marketing joke. They only hurt their own market future. most sincerely, A.J. Campbell, Ancient Arts Studio |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2010 14:20:31 GMT
while i cannot testify for the han dynasty jian... the "official" Red Cliff movie swords are movie/ fantasy/ rpg swords. they are not ex[ected to be more than a wall hanger. a lot of vendors sell stuff like this. if it is not listed as fucntional... it is probably not. most movie replics if carbon steel arent HT either.
sorry to hear that your han is bad tho... seems like a bummer. has it been listed as functional, or HT? the bad part about this is that folks dont know what they are getting due to some vendors misleading the customers, for better sales. one can make a better profit margin by dealing honestly.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2010 18:53:49 GMT
Sirtre, Well, I knew the Red Cliff swords were non-functional movie stuff, but I mentioned them because they were specifically made by Zheng-Wu Forge, the owner of which I quoted, and who said that it's a shame that certain Chinese companies make such inferior quality. (I got the swords for Christmas presents.) The Zheng-Wu Emperor Han sword is made with quality steel, probably a full tang, and it has lost-wax brass fittings. It's a quality piece. That's not my rub. I was disappointed that it looked nothing like the "patterned" steel sword described in the accompanying blurb written by SwordNArmory, evidently Chris Zheng-Wu's importer in California. Probably the best thing for me to do is start a new post on the Sword Review thread. The Zheng-Wu sword sells for $500 yet in many respects it's no better than the $189 Gens Han sword sold by Kultofathena. That's over $300 worth of hype. The Longquan makers are capable of delivering the worlds best production swords, but they need to respect their collector clientel and make sure their dealers describe their products in a forthwright manner. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2010 19:43:17 GMT
Two words: Jin Shi
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2010 5:35:55 GMT
Yuh, I know. Garrett's gotta be one busy man! And he's getting a new customer. ;D I have wiped off the excess oil of the Zeng Wu sword, took it out into the sunlight-- and whalah!-- there is a light patterning to the blade. I think the extreme polish job almost hides it. So, its actually a nice blade, maybe too nice. All that polishing contributed to the high price. Anyway, it's a "keeper," and I'll buy a magnifying glass so friends can see the pattern welding. But at the price, I ain't gonna whack coke bottles. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2010 5:45:03 GMT
Does the Longquan forge produce good functional swords with a certain brand, or would it be to whomever contracted them so that in order to know Longquan made it we would have to look at the tang or examine it closely?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2010 6:40:35 GMT
Longquan is the city. It's the oldest sword-producing center in China, about 1600 years. The Dragon spring water has a certain mineral content that makes ideal quenching. There are a number of local sword factories that produce varying quality, some are battle-ready folded steel. Zheng Wu Forge (actually good swords). Pkoo Swords (more good swords, whom I think Garrett deals with). JiangShi Sword Co. (aka GENS, sold through Kultofathena). Shining Sword Factory (need better finishing). Ryan Swords (an assembler). Zhisword (need better finishing). These are a few I'm familiar with. There are others. They forge swords in sanmai style, welded cheek style, ground either 4-sided or 8-sided. Most of the finishing and polishing is done on flat stones by hand. Historically, these craftsmen were way ahead of the Europeans. My complaint is the great disparity in price for the same quality. That's why we need someone like Garret. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2010 7:28:56 GMT
Longquan is the city. It's the oldest sword-producing center in China, about 1600 years. The Dragon spring water has a certain mineral content that makes ideal quenching. There are a number of local sword factories that produce varying quality, some are battle-ready folded steel. Zheng Wu Forge (actually good swords). Pkoo Swords (more good swords, whom I think Garrett deals with). JiangShi Sword Co. (aka GENS, sold through Kultofathena). Shining Sword Factory (need better finishing). Ryan Swords (an assembler). Zhisword (need better finishing). Yeah, ya beat me to explaining it! I've seen millions of SLOs all over SF Chinatown with the Chinese characters: Lung-Chuan Prized Sword/Knife! It's kinda like a "Killroy was here!"  edit: Oh yeah, I speak Cantonese and I call Long-Quan, "Lung-Chuan" which means "Dragon Spring" Next time I'll try using Mandarin so we all know what we're talkin' about! ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2010 8:50:41 GMT
These guys are some of the finest blade artists in the world. But they need to be convinced that there's a market for their quality work. And the quality of the finished sword and scabbard needs to improve. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2010 0:36:01 GMT
Well, a representative of the Longquan museum was here in our technical museum, for an exhibit and a 2hr presentation. Really disappointing. His knowledge on sword was rudimentary, his exponats not worth talking of.
I just hope, they kept the goodies at home, not showing here in Taiwan? Still, the lecture was ....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2010 9:39:02 GMT
I believe the Longquan Museum was founded by Chris Zheng Wu himself. One unknowledgable rep doesn't mean they all are. At the moment I'm dealing with another Longquan sword company, and their representative knows his stuff, including the historical background of grip wrappings, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2010 14:57:46 GMT
They're very overpriced considering the product they're putting out. Also they price the laminations based on layers, with a huge price jump as the number doubles. Think about it, to double the layers you just hammer and fold the steel ONCE more. Consistency has been an issue, soft steel and central plates not being centered...resulting in soft areas on the edge.
Also consider swords are tools and if you actually parry something, it's likely to chip regardless of how carefully you perform a flat parry. Zhengwu lacks the proper clamshell geometry to protect the edge.
I own 5 antique jian but for modern swords, I'm looking towards Jin-shi for a well heat treated with the proper geometry. I also have modern swords costing twice as much as what Garrett charges that I now look at as pieces of crap as their flat grinds makes them nothing more than a nice sword for forms or cutting targets that aren't too tough. But they're NOT like the antiques.
If you only want to cut and such that's fine. If you want your sword to be a real weapon just like the old ones, even though you'll never fight with it, get one with better consistent steel and proper geometry.
Besides, with Jin-shi, if it suffers serious damage, it's cheaper to buy a new one than to have it professionally repolished.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2010 5:01:05 GMT
Agreed!
I may be wrong, but I think Garrett deals with Jkoo, not Zheng Wu. At the moment, Jkoo is making a custom Han for me with a 30" blade and an 11" grip. This ratio appears in the archaeological Hans. The price is steep because, as you note, the blade has a high number of folds. But it is less expensive than Zheng Wu's.
My next project is moving to Garrett and trying to get a higher grade Han jian-dao built from folded steel. (Actually, I don't cut anything, not even butter, but collect for "condition." And dings on the blade, scratches on the scabbard, devalue the sword.)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2010 3:19:30 GMT
Use a flashlight, you will see the pattern. Without any chemical processes, you won't see the pattern under normal daylight. That is the way Chinese folding sword looks. Zheng wu has good reputation to making sword, eventhough his works are over priced in china now. $500 is a good price.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2010 3:49:41 GMT
Use a flashlight, you will see the pattern. Without any chemical processes, you won't see the pattern under normal daylight. That is the way Chinese folding sword looks. Zheng wu has good reputation to making sword, eventhough his works are over priced in china now. $500 is a good price. Thanks for the tip. At first, I couldn't see the pattern under artifical light, but did see it in bright sunlight. It's a beautiful blade, extremely subtle markings. It sits on a Hanwai single-sword stand which also holds a 19th century brass Buddha. The scabbard is sandelwood and it has been center-cut exactly along the grain. For a 41 inch sword, it has superb balance. |
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