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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2010 3:17:34 GMT
I've been pondering this question myself for a little bit now....what exactly are the traits that make a sword, or any blade, a good cutter / chopper?
Let's examine some blade's that have historically been considered good choppers and cutters.
Gross Messer, Falchion, Scimitar, Saber, Machete, Viking sword, Katana.
Now, what do most of these swords have in common? Wide blades, thin blades, curved blades.
Now the viking isn't curved, and the katana isn't wide, but they posses the rest of the properties of a efficient cutter.
I know there was a recent thread on here about how a curved blade doesn't necessarily mean a blade will be a better cutter. Almost all of the blades that are known as cutters have a slight curve, however.
And all, except the Katana, have very wide blades....I always thought that the extra width and mass of a blade was one of the essential elements of a good cutter, however I recently read a differing view.
Take a look at this reasoning, and let me know what you think.
Weight vs power is a tricky equation, as is the question of whether a heavier sword will perform better. Generally speaking the answer to the latter question is "no". As a sword becomes more massive it has the potential to store more energy, thus it would seem that a heavier sword will be more powerful. However, let's look for a moment at the example of baseball bats and performance hitters. Do hitters try to make a heavier bat in order to hit the ball further? In fact, they try various techniques to make a lighter bat so they can swing faster and hit the ball farther. This is because the human body is very good at producing speed in light objects but not in heavy ones. Since potential energy is essentially a calculation of speed x mass, one has to find the balance where the human body is able to put the most energy into the sword. A secondary issue is that how well a blade cuts is directly related to the cross section, the simplest parts of which are the width and the thickness. A thick blade will tend to bind in the cut, while an overyly wide blade can tend to slow in the cut do to friction. Speed also improves the chances of cutting an unsupported object, which is why a katana will easily cut through tatame mats while an axe simply will not. The axe has more power but is moving too slowly to cut the mat. In essence this is the other side of the equation: how much energy does the cutting tool transfer to the item being struck. For swords, one generally wants minimal transfer, with ideal being the blade passing through without slowing or even feeling the blow in the handle. It is also important to keep in mind that a slower moving blade is easier to avoid or block, which is why the general evolution of swords was towards speed rather than "power".
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Post by William Swiger on Jul 18, 2010 6:50:21 GMT
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
In combat, a blade may be used to slash (cut with the edge, generally in a swinging motion), stab (plunge the blade in, starting with the tip and proceeding as the blade enters more deeply), or throw/shoot (throwing a throwing knife so the point enters the target).
The ability of a blade to cut arises from the concentration of the force applied to the blade onto a very small area, resulting in a high pressure on the matter to be penetrated.
As a rule the blade must be made of a substance which is harder than (or as hard as) the material it is intended to cut. If this is not the case the blade will either be unable to cut (as it absorbs all the energy as it is damaged) or will wear away very quickly (if it is hard enough to transfer enough of the energy to damage the material). The material must also be tough enough to last (e.g. glass is very hard but it shatters easily and thus is not very effective as a material for a blade).
An ideal blade would come to a perfect edge —not at all rounded— but that says nothing of the angle of that edge. The ideal angle is a function of the material being cut.
Material for weapon blades has to be selected to achieve a balance between hardness and toughness and the balance is dependent upon the intended use of a blade.
Techniques may also be employed to make the blade stronger or harder. Blades made of steel with a high enough carbon content (greater than 0.2%) can be heat-treated by heating the steel up to a critical point (most simple carbon alloys become non-magnetic slightly below that point), then quenching it with forced air, oil, or water depending on the steel. The tempering process would make it slightly softer, but also tougher and "springier", and thus less likely to break or chip during everyday usage.
Swords may have either a straight blade or a curved one. A straight sword was thought to be primarily intended for hacking and stabbing, yet recent studies have shown this to be untrue, as many slicing techniques were used. The difference between a hacking cut and a slashing one is essentially the same as the difference between using a butcher's knife and a chef's knife; one forces an edge straight into a material while the other is pulled along the material to get more of a slicing action. Hacking cuts were usually followed by a slicing action, where the sword is drawn backwards to maximize the cut.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2010 10:21:47 GMT
The information presented makes me think that the critical determining factors in a successful cut are easily identified, but require complex explanations (read:math) for in-depth study. These factors are (but are not limited to): blade geometry, point of balance, the "sweet spot" (monoichi for katana-the approx. 9" back from the yokote), and technique/skill of the swordsman/woman. As much as some may want to reduce this to mathematics, I (and this is just my opinion) tend to think that the last factor deserves the most consideration. The Smiths and fighters hundreds of years ago were not likely well versed in physics and ballistics. However, smiths made incredible weapons and a good fighter could wield even a crappy blade and be deadly. These facts point to my weighting the more "organic" factor so heavily, while certainly not discounting the others. To be clear, THIS IS JUST MY OPINION AND I DO NOT STATE IT AS FACT. To the OP: thanks! This is a very interesting topic and I'm really looking forward to hearing the ideas of the MANY more blade-savvy members of our tribe.
Blessings, ~wp
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2010 10:38:54 GMT
Before stating my opinion, let me add some other cutters you didn't mention. XIII, XII and the like. These are the real cutters among the longswords and certainly deserve attention here.
What makes them cut so well? Long, wide, thin blades (pretty flexible, too) combined with a two handed grip so more powerful cuts can be made. Interestingly, the katana, a weapon famous for it's cutting potential, is the exact opposite: Shorter and with a really thick, slim and curved blade. Only the two handed grip is found on them aswell. Another difference is the amount of distal taper on XIII and kats. Despite their immense differences, both blades are two of the best cutters ever made, if not the best. Isn't that weird? I think it shows very well that the same result can be achieved with very different approaches.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2010 20:11:34 GMT
Of course there is good cutting form to be followed, but to some extent it can be much a matter of personal swing style and effort. Consider comparing it to a golf club. There are many different heads, shafts, flexes, lofts, etc. available to achieve the results desired. Even among pros, who often get their clubs for free, the variety is impressive. And even they switch back and forth among clubs as they fiddle with their swing. The point I'm trying to make is that, like golf clubs, there is no "best" sword for all. Each person will be able to achieve the results they want, with all the different sword styles and lengths available, but it may be quite different from what someone else is using. Problem for us is we don't get our swords for free (most of us anyway) and our ability to experiment is therefore limited unless we are financially care-free. Therefore, we rely on the general consensus and reviews from those with more resources. This usually works out pretty well as there are many knowledgeable sword enthusiasts willing to advise us. Even so, unless we get lucky or are willing to experiment a bit we may never find that "perfect" sword for us!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2010 20:41:14 GMT
And what is it that you have found through reading reviews, Mogur?
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 18, 2010 23:49:56 GMT
I find that a lot of people underestimate the importance of harmonics in cutting swords. It seems that when a blade starts vibrating, the edge "loses contact with the target" by vibrating from side to side. This stops the slicing action and turns it into a bludgeoning action against the target.
So, the longer the area of the blade that cuts without vibrating, the more reliably the sword cuts, all other things being close to equal. At least that's what I have observed.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2010 1:08:51 GMT
I find that a lot of people underestimate the importance of harmonics in cutting swords. It seems that when a blade starts vibrating, the edge "loses contact with the target" by vibrating from side to side. This stops the slicing action and turns it into a bludgeoning action against the target. So, the longer the area of the blade that cuts without vibrating, the more reliably the sword cuts, all other things being close to equal. At least that's what I have observed. mike, i am sure harmonics exist in all types of swords... but i havent had it to be noticeable as to where i need to know about it until i custom worked the hanwei tinker bastard sword into a jian. i reckon it is because the other swords that i had was already where the needed to be and the modified one was changed. if you had not explained to me to move up a few inches for the sweet spot i would still be scratching my head. the jian sweet spot is closer to the tip, but the bastard sword was farther. even tho i made a jian... it was stilll a bastard sword blade. what i am saying here is that you have a valid point about harmonics. and the guys above are right as well... historic smiths probably didnt have a slide rule and a calculator...but i am sure the had some sort of way to figure it out... even if it was the old tap the pommel and look for the wiggle spot, so to speak. but above all i still have to agree that over half of the equation in swordsmanship is the swordsman. a smith can make the best sword on earth... and some unskilled swordsman barely use it correctly. but a skilled swordsman can take a stick and beat him... just my nickel's worth.
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Dom T.
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Post by Dom T. on Jul 19, 2010 1:44:07 GMT
Well, since we all know that ShooterMike has a cutting power of over 9000, he is obviously correct. ....No, seriously. Haven't y'all seen the videos?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2010 3:22:40 GMT
I find that a lot of people underestimate the importance of harmonics in cutting swords. It seems that when a blade starts vibrating, the edge "loses contact with the target" by vibrating from side to side. This stops the slicing action and turns it into a bludgeoning action against the target. So, the longer the area of the blade that cuts without vibrating, the more reliably the sword cuts, all other things being close to equal. At least that's what I have observed. Ok, then how do you explain a typical Viking sword which has a very wide, but relatively thin blade (which vibrates/flexes a lot when it cuts), being considered a cutting sword, and a better cutter than a stiffer, but thinner arming sword, etc?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2010 9:35:35 GMT
Well, since we all know that ShooterMike has a cutting power of over 9000, he is obviously correct. ....No, seriously. Haven't y'all seen the videos? Shootermike does't cut the target... the target shouts "oh shite, it's mike!!!" and falls in half.
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Jul 19, 2010 10:22:58 GMT
I find that a lot of people underestimate the importance of harmonics in cutting swords. It seems that when a blade starts vibrating, the edge "loses contact with the target" by vibrating from side to side. This stops the slicing action and turns it into a bludgeoning action against the target. So, the longer the area of the blade that cuts without vibrating, the more reliably the sword cuts, all other things being close to equal. At least that's what I have observed. Ok, then how do you explain a typical Viking sword which has a very wide, but relatively thin blade (which vibrates/flexes a lot when it cuts), being considered a cutting sword, and a better cutter than a stiffer, but thinner arming sword, etc? I'm sure Mike can answer this far better than myself, but I'll give it a shot... Vibration and flex are two ENTIRELY different things. Flex is okay in a cutting sword, and I've even heard that it helps, although that may or may not be true. Vibration, on the other hand, is like when you hit a bottle with bad edge allignment and it vibrates like crazy, where you can feel the shudders in the hilt of the sword. That's a LOT of vibration, whereas I believe Mike's referring to a lower level of the same. In essence, it doesn't matter if a sword is thin, wide, and flexible as long as you hit on the COP and perform the cut correctly. Being thin, wide, and flexible probably makes a sword more likely to have catastrophic cut failure due to vibration, but only if the person weilding the sword cut badly. Even with katana, if you hit a target with the flat of the blade, to simulate horrible edge allignment, you WILL feel it vibrate... I don't reccomend doing this, though, as with a DH katana it might bend the sword. Just my $0.02, hope it helps. -Slayer
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Jul 19, 2010 10:25:35 GMT
Well, since we all know that ShooterMike has a cutting power of over 9000, he is obviously correct. ....No, seriously. Haven't y'all seen the videos? Shootermike does't cut the target... the target shouts "oh shite, it's mike!!!" and falls in half. Only sometimes, man. ;)That happen when Mike takes it slowly and settles before making the cut. If he just goes for it, it normally sounds more like "Shi--" *slash, cascade of water, drip, drip...*. ;D Yeah, Mike is THE master... I still don't believe he's entirely mortal; the man must be the long-lost Greek god of swords. -Slayer
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Post by Dave(utilityslave) on Jul 19, 2010 11:24:52 GMT
I think the targets fall easily to his sword to avoid the deluge of bullets to follow at a target playing difficult!
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 19, 2010 14:28:32 GMT
Lots of, uhh.... creative license taken there. The "harmonics" I was refering to is the same sort of behavior Ianflaeur measures in his reviews by allowing the blade to fall of its own weight into the cutting stand. To me, the term has nothing to do with how much a sword can flex. It all has to do with vibration when the blade performs certain actions in relation to striking a target. Some of it has to do with how long the "sweet spot" is. That determines how much of the edge is useable for cutting. For instance, if you take two otherwise identical-looking swords, and one only cuts well at a spot 2-3 inches long located at the CoP, and the other cuts well anywhere along the blade from the tip to halfway down the blade... Well, I would assert that the second sword is a far superior cutter because it has a much greater useable edge length.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2010 16:22:06 GMT
Shootermike does't cut the target... the target shouts "oh shite, it's mike!!!" and falls in half. Only sometimes, man. ;)That happen when Mike takes it slowly and settles before making the cut. If he just goes for it, it normally sounds more like "Shi--" *slash, cascade of water, drip, drip...*. ;D Yeah, Mike is THE master... I still don't believe he's entirely mortal; the man must be the long-lost Greek god of swords. -Slayer yeah, shootermike is the chuck noris of the sword world.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2010 16:23:19 GMT
Lots of, uhh.... creative license taken there. The "harmonics" I was refering to is the same sort of behavior Ianflaeur measures in his reviews by allowing the blade to fall of its own weight into the cutting stand. To me, the term has nothing to do with how much a sword can flex. It all has to do with vibration when the blade performs certain actions in relation to striking a target. Some of it has to do with how long the "sweet spot" is. That determines how much of the edge is useable for cutting. For instance, if you take two otherwise identical-looking swords, and one only cuts well at a spot 2-3 inches long located at the CoP, and the other cuts well anywhere along the blade from the tip to halfway down the blade... Well, I would assert that the second sword is a far superior cutter because it has a much greater useable edge length. i agree, because if i dont use th hanwei tinker basterd sword blade like you told me i get all kind of vibration in the handle.
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Jul 19, 2010 16:24:26 GMT
Yeah, Chuck Norris is SOOO last year. Shootermike's in. C'mon! Chuck Norris---Mike Harris? Yeah, Mike wins! I bet Mike could cut an atom in half.... if they didn't keep running away from him! -Slayer
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 19, 2010 18:32:24 GMT
I agree that the major part of the equation will always be the one wielding the sword. But still, some swords just cut better than others. I think this is what the OP is getting at. "Given an equal amount of skill, proper edge alignment, and optimum velocity, what really makes some swords cut better than others?" Or I may just be reading the question wrong... If this is the question...I don't know all the answer. But I think a substantial portion of the answer lies in harmonics, sharpness, shape of the edge geometry, and cross sectional density of the blade at the point of impact.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2010 19:01:35 GMT
sorry Mike... you got the deal spot on. we are just talkin noise as usual. just swordsmen cutting a thread instead of tatami.
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