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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2010 3:04:24 GMT
So I plan on making a heater shield sometime in the future, I already have all the information I could ever want about how to bend the wood, and all that good stuff...thanks yeoldegaffer! In any case, my question is this: Why does the arm go across the shield instead of down the length? I can figure out the advantage gained by letting the point of the shield hang off your elbow. It makes sense to me to place the elbow near the top of the shield and place the point nearer to the fist. Then you can strike with the point of the shield and make use of the grain alignment for catching swords that bite into the shield...  Anyway, I would really appreciate any theories you guys might have! |
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Jun 29, 2010 3:15:09 GMT
Well, I don't exactly know WHY it goes like it does, but it's not horizontal OR vertical, it's diagonal, which I believe presents a target of diagonal grain of wood to any incoming strikes, AND it presents the majority of the shield actually covering important parts of your body, whereas a shield being turned the other way would protect empty air to either side of you, and leave more of your body open. Maybe I'm completely wrong (more than likely, I suppose. ;D), but that seems logical to me. HTH, Slayer |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2010 3:33:58 GMT
There have been shields made to just the design you're speaking of, akotlya1. They were universally small and made more for offense than defense.
The reason a strapped shield is strapped the way it is is for maximum utility and minimum strain. You can block more incoming shots in more ways than any other strap setup. And you still get some good offense out of it, too. All while requiring less strength and endurance to maintain, so you can last longer.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2010 3:42:45 GMT
Interesting, I hadn't considered the position to be an ergonomic choice. You learn something new everyday!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2010 5:07:37 GMT
With a heater what you will generally do is hang it up by the front corner. Tie a string with a weight and let gravity pulls it straight down. You hand will go near that top corner and you were place the forearm strap so that it follows that line. That is what most people do. The general idea with a heater is that when you bring your arm up into a boxers stance the forward corner is protecting your face. The bottom cornet your upper leg. You look around that corner. You hold the heater fairly close to your body and punch up, down and the the sides to block in minimal motions to conserve energy. You generally use the corners to block 80% of incoming shots. The edges will block another 10%. No one who know what they are doing is going to throw a blow into the flat of you shield. Only time you will intentionally move your shield so much to block with the flat is against flails and other chain like weapons that can bend around a shield. This pictures should give you some idea of the defense that you want to project with a heater.     A lot of the horizontal head shots will deflect up and off that corner when you point it up. For the low legs you have to manage your range. Either far enough so they can not be reached or close enough to cut the angle or stuff the shot. The back corner will catch any wraps that go back there. I have changed my guard slightly since I took these pictures, I hold the bottom corner closer in. That adjustment will also move the top rear corner so it covers the back of the head better. I have to take some updated pictures when I get a chance. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2010 15:10:59 GMT
Those pictures were before we sparred last year, weren't they?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2010 16:26:31 GMT
Those pictures were before we sparred last year, weren't they? Yes, well before we sparred. The strapping is the same though, which is what I posted the pictures. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2010 18:22:11 GMT
I was asking because I noticed the shield position. Particularly that lower edge.
You can Almost sneak a thrust up under it. Which I recall was something you'd planned on changing. I guess you didn't like the idea of sticking that lower edge out farther, then? Or just the practice of it?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2010 19:23:44 GMT
I think part of what you are seeing in this picture is "posing". Holding the shield without armor is feels different then when I am in armor. The forearm strap sits differently when I wear a gambson.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2010 23:57:47 GMT
It's in about the same position in these pics as in the video of our sparring and as I remember seeing it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2010 5:47:06 GMT
The strap itself is in the same position, but not having the gambeson to fill out the leather strap makes it hang slightly lower. As I said I generally keep the lower point closer to my leg. I had these pictures already uploaded from a thread on shield and I just used them again rather then take new ones. At some point I promise I will update the pictures for you  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2010 13:35:09 GMT
In any case, my question is this: Why does the arm go across the shield instead of down the length? I can figure out the advantage gained by letting the point of the shield hang off your elbow. It makes sense to me to place the elbow near the top of the shield and place the point nearer to the fist. Then you can strike with the point of the shield and make use of the grain alignment for catching swords that bite into the shield... (1) Very few "modern" shield combat forms let you shield bash. SCA doesn't. Some of the LARP systems do, but only with a shield that is highly padded. So nobody is bothering to develop this as a combat style since you can't practice or use it anywhere. (2) The placement of the grips/straps on a shield is about coverage and leverage. Tsafa tackled coverage very well. You want one corner covering your shoulder another your face/head, and the bottom point covering your leg/groin. So leverage... The grips are placed on a shield so that you have a moment arm that multiplies the forces from your elbow and hand motions. This lets you rotate the shield easier. Any motion where the axis of rotation is parallel to your forearm will difficult, because you will have a very small moment arm. Or in laymen's terms, motions that require you to twist your wrist suck because you will never have good leverage. You want motions that require you to swing your forearm around. Where you place the grips and straps effects which specific motions are easier because it controls which motions are the wrist-twisting ones. The classic greek argive grip is horizontal. You can open and close the shield into or away from your body. This same motion also helps you protect from attacks to the sides when you add shoulder motion. You can spin it up and down to raise or lower it. You can't really spin it from horizontal to vertical and back again easily (like a dog door flap). This is why they wore grieves to keep the shield from banging into their shins when someone hit the top or bottom of their shield with a spear. The heater grip is diagonal across the shield face. This means you actually have a reduced moment arm in all of the primary movement directions. Which makes it very flexible. It might not be as good in specific types of motion but it doesn't have any major weaknesses either. I'm not sure how your idea for a vertical grip would work, because I really don't understand your stance and useage. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2010 16:42:30 GMT
I'm not sure how your idea for a vertical grip would work, because I really don't understand your stance and useage. He's talking about a stabbing shield, basically. tsafa, nevermind. Wasn't important anyway. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2010 19:37:47 GMT
I'm not sure how your idea for a vertical grip would work, because I really don't understand your stance and useage. I have see one or two people use that grip. When I tried their shields I found it extremely tiring. |
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Post by willmccrum on Oct 13, 2020 10:53:40 GMT
The thing to not forget is that the heater shield was primarily a KNIGHTLY shield, for use on HORSEBACK. There should really be THREE straps, the long diagonal (guige) and one short near either side. It developed from the kite-shield which is now known to be for both infantry and cavalry, because a long shield is bad in a melee, the horse's neck getting in the way if you swing the shield from left to right. Much the same as the Roman cavalry using a barma/Parma rather than an unwieldy scutum. The long guige was swung round the neck, and ALWAYS took the weight of the shield, whether carried across the back on travel, or across the front in battle. It's heavy holding those things up for hours! the other two straps were as handle and as elbow stabilizer. A very firm, mobile, elegant and practical design. The pointed bottom prevented clumsy collision with the horse's flank.
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