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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2010 12:25:23 GMT
Just curious if anyone knows if cryo-treating a sword would provide any benefits? I have heard it does wonders to gun barrels. www.cryoplus.com/cuttingtools.htmlWhile the science of heat treatment is well known and widely understood, the principles of cryogenic tempering remain a mystery to most people in industry. Information regarding this process is full of contradictions and unanswered questions. Until recently, cryogenic processing was viewed as having little value, due to the often brittle nature of the finished product. It is only since the development of computer modeled cooling and reheating process, that the true benefits of cryogenically treated materials have become available to industry and the general public.
Cryogenic treatment can improve the performance and life of your HSS or carbide cutting tools, blades, stamping dies, knives, shears, punches and dies up to 400%! Peak performance and durability is vital to every manufacturing application. The cost and downtime associated with parts replacement has limited the speed of production equipment since the beginning of the industrial age. Proper cryogenic tempering offers impressive gains in terms of tool and component life.
Cryogenic treatment benefits include longer life, less tendency to crack, and this one-time, permanent, and irreversible process means that parts that are reground or re-sharpened do not have to be treated a second time. Also, because up to 66% less material is removed each time, a part can be re-sharpened more times before it is out of tolerance. cryogenically treated cutting tools
Cryogenic processing has been around for many years, but it has been refined using computer-controlled cooling and reheating. Due to recent developments, the cryogenic process for metals is inexpensive. When you consider the increased tool life of up to 400%, it is extremely cost-effective
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2010 15:35:54 GMT
check with SamSalvanti or DanDavis.
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Post by wiwingti on Jun 14, 2010 15:52:52 GMT
I talk often to the two boss of Dynasty forge.
when i talked with them about that cryo thing they said that they've already made tests in the past and that it didn't change the endurance of the blade at all. because i needed their permission since i wanted to make tests with their blade and explained that i would specify that the tests were made by myself and not from them. that i would make some of their blades cryo and the balance not and would test endurance.
since i am a DF dealer, didn't want me or them to have any trouble with that thing so this is the only reason i asked permission.
By the way, they said that if i wanted to spend money they didn't care but that it would be sad for me to spend money for nothing since , in the past, they've tried it and it didn't change anything at all on their blades.
so i would say that maybe on some blades it can change something and some others not, that, if a blade is already very well heat treated, , maybe this is why it wouldn't change anything.
Marc
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2010 16:15:30 GMT
I have seen info that the type of steel makes a large difference. I contacted a firm to inquire about it and was told:
It may damage the blade and there is no guarantee if that happens. Sometimes it will warp and then it has to be straightened. If this is pre-polish then you need a new polish if damage occurs.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2010 1:38:01 GMT
Sometimes it will warp and then it has to be straightened. You wouldn't be able to make it straight again permanently. The warp is from stress at the grain size level (~xtal structure kinda). You would have to heat it to release the stress and that would counter act anything the cryohardening did. This type of hardening is typical to small sturdy objects. Long blades are actually pretty delicate (despite how nasty they can be). Anyways, I'm no expert. Maybe there is an alloy and pretreatment that makes it worth while.
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Post by sicheah on Jun 15, 2010 2:13:34 GMT
Ah the topic on Cyro Treatment...this topic has been bought up countless of times at SFI (and recently here too...causing the thread to lock down ). Since I don't know much about it, the least I could do is to show you that by typing "cryo" at SFI forum, you could get lots of information there: www.swordforum.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2408758
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2010 2:15:40 GMT
cryo is used and touted to convert a little extra retained austenite, it is only viable on some high alloy steels, and even then there is no concrete proof of much improvement.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2010 5:41:09 GMT
I have poured allot of time into this. Angel sword has by far the most advertising on cryo sword stuff. It is from their angle I have done allot of research. Their use of it was a way to provide a sword with the strength of a forged sword without forging it. Because most of their swords are cut from sheet steel and hardened you can expect some problems in the micro structure of the blades. Their therma cycle cryo fixes said problems. Same problems that would not be there if the blade was forged because the micro structure would be already uniform. Their huge percent increase numbers are because they are using the numbers of the stock sheet steel versus the end product that has been hardened And therma cycled. That is the end of story. Having cut with a sword of theirs I can say they are sharp and cut well, but I can also say this about the chen raptors.
In the sword world I see allot of talk and not allot of exact data to back things up. It is because of that that logic does not come into play as much as it should in all aspects of buying a sword for specific reasons. Angel sword charges $100 to therma cycle a standard size katana. Yet there is more time spent poking that to death than their is trying to find out just how much better an MAS "L6" is than a Chen Raptor overall? Just how much more durable would it be? How much longer would the edge hold? How much of that would be dictated by Polish, mounts and the user? Since bainite has such a narrow success rate how much better would a Howard Clark L6 do than an MAS in side by side testing? Had anyone stopped to ask if MAS is really using L6 or are they calling SKS51 L6 just to ride the fame train Howard built for L6?
I say a sword buyer should focus on finding a decently made blade and getting it polished and mounted by skilled craftsman. That sword buyer would be better off long term in overall use and in the wallet.
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Post by Dan Davis on Jun 15, 2010 11:54:01 GMT
Okay, First off: Daniel Watson's processes are being applied to a particular alloy and the cryogenic treatment is only one step in the process. If you want to find out about Daniel's process go to www.uspto.gov/patents/process/search/ and search by inventor. His patents are all there; you can download them and read all about it. Hell, if you decide you want to use his process he is fairly easy about licensing if you ask. If you want to semprini about how it is unfair that you don't understand it or that he will not give away his technology, go cry in someone else's soup. Better yet, go ask Northrup-Grumman to give it to you; they license it themselves. Good luck with that. Second: There are a LOT of technological processes in existence that are designed solely to take the place of the blacksmith. Why? Because skilled blacksmiths are expensive and in the long run machines are cheap. A lot of times the fancy processes are there to fix things that a skilled smith does not let happen anyway. For example, cryo treatment is used on machine-made knives, scrapers, dies, etc. to remove retained austenite, just as Sam said. A competent smith does not leave any retained austenite (or VERY little) and so cryo treatment gives very little improvement on a hand-forged blade. Machines, on the other hand, have no sense of judgment and therefore can be relied upon to leave significant retained austenite in at least some of their output. This also explains why it helps machine-made gun barrels.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2010 23:36:52 GMT
I understand the process well and respect its use. I see it more as insurance for production swords. It is a good way to take a cheaper sword like a Cheness,Dynasty, or a Chen blade and be a bit more secure on just how reliable it will be. But it does not make normal sword steel super steel as Angel sword claims. I had Daniel himself tell me that a batch of swords I wanted to send in would increase in durability by "about" 50%. That would not be right because if you doubled the ability of 5160 that would be at an L6 level And he made a point of saying that 5160 could never catch up to L6 bainite in that respect. The whole use of spring tempered 5160 in production swords is to make them a "poor man's L6".
My point was that people attack a procedure proven daily that does not quite produce a super sword, but makes a machined sword as strong as a forged one. So if you take a blade like the Chen Raptors that is a machine made blade and therma cycle it you are taking that spring tempered 5160 to the limit of the steel. So why do you need anything more than that for $100? Bainite seems to add more to the equation than L6 does. I remember a test Howard did with an L6 where he bolted a 5160 blade to a 4x4 post and struck it until it broke with an L6 blade. The L6 had chips but the 5160 broke in two pieces. I assume the blade was a Kris Cutlery because Keith Larhman said the blade was a production 5160 not made by Paul Chen. But If I am right what does it really prove? A custom sword 10 times the cost of the KC broke it, but still took damage. I believe the brake was due to a lack of shock absorption that the KC wouldn't have had being plain differentialy hardened.
I'm just saying that there is not much solid proof on pretty much any review or video I have seen backing up allot of the claims. Most testing is maybe some mats and hard targets being cut and the user talking about how easy the cuts were and how sharp the sword is.Even destructive testing does not prove much given the lack of similar swords to compare data with. Most of the difference found is more about geometry,polish and heat treat than steel alone. Yet that fact escapes people all to often.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2010 4:40:21 GMT
It doesnt interest me as a collector.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2010 0:57:09 GMT
Ive heard that cryo treatment will keep your head forever-or until someone finds you a new body!!!!And that is the total of my knowledge on this subject.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2010 4:27:29 GMT
Ive heard that cryo treatment will keep your head forever-or until someone finds you a new body!!!!And that is the total of my knowledge on this subject. You watched "Modern Marvels" today too?
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