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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2007 22:42:17 GMT
Theres a lot of hype out there on creatine. Recently I started using it. Has anyone used it to good effect? Or is all the hype a bunch of nonsene?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2007 1:24:54 GMT
My younger brother the body builder swears by the stuff.I told him if he were to drop dead he would keep growing for two weeks.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2007 1:35:28 GMT
I did it about 4 years ago and would stay on it for two months and then off for a month and then on again. I gained about 15 pounds and my bench increased from 225 to 285. At the height of my strength I could bench 225 10 times in a row.
It is hard to maintain though.
If I had it to do over again I would not. As you get older you realize that you cannot keep doing it as your over all health is important. If you had maybe a single event to train for you could get ready for it then let down again (come off the juice). Right now I put more emphasis on cardio but still keep up with the weight training. The cardio has been a big bonus to my fighting!
Plus that stuff is expensive!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2007 3:26:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2007 8:18:13 GMT
I have tried creatine on three separate occasions. Within 2 or 3 days I felt minor muscle cramps and muscle twitching. I drank plenty of water. I tried it again 6 months later an then 6 months after that. In all three cases I used it for about 2 weeks. The muscle twitching continued for one week after I stopped using it. The first time and second time I used the cheaper monohydrate and the last time I bought the expensive stuff thinking that might be better. Same results.
The twiching was kind of cool. You see a muscle jumping around on its own. The slight muscle cramping was a bit disturbing but more of a bigger twitch then a full cramp. That thing that bothered me most was when I started feeling cramps in my fingers. This now effected my fighting ability. That is why it does not work for me. I am probably part of a small minority of people effected like this.
I believe that creatine provides a direct source of energy to the muscles. I probably have more then enough and the creatine might have just been overloading them. Just speculating there. I have to admit, it certainly did have some effect. I was not on it long enough to get any measurable strength improvements. I was worried that if I pushes myself, I might get a full cramp in the middle of a set. I can't make any judgment other then to say I really don't like what it does to me.
I do take amino acids in liquid form. I take a little after a heavy workout with a good meal but not always.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2007 8:55:38 GMT
Tsafa you bring up some cool points about side effects... the reasearch says "blah blah blah no evidence of side effects" whereas I KNOW that when using dodgy cheap (for australia) creatine I get GI upset if it's not dissolved properly (i.e. in hot water) and a friend of mine will get GI upset no matter how he takes the cheap stuff... hasn't tried the better quality creatine.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2007 8:57:01 GMT
I started taking it about 8 years ago just out of interest. While I noticed a little development as I was more into my studies at the time, I stopped taking it as I felt it may have been in vain. The best thing I would recommend as a supplement is OMEGA-3,6, and 9. Basically fish oils, or more effectively cod-liver oil due to its concentration. It improves brain function, stops my joints aching and 'clicking', lowers cholesterol, and wards of altzeihemers/parkinsons. ......and of course the french paradox, Red wine one glass every night.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2007 0:43:35 GMT
......and of course the french paradox, Red wine one glass every night. I might die before I take body-building advice from the french.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2007 2:27:16 GMT
lol, that was funny Lukebailey.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Dec 14, 2007 4:09:51 GMT
I took creatine and grew stronger and bigger while doing it, but I don't attribute that to the Creatine. I attribut that to heaps of quality food. However like tsafa I do attribut the cramps to the Creatine. Its hard to lift heavy safely when you cramp up half way through your workout.
There is no magic formula for longlasting gains, except for tons of home cooked food. And that aint a half bad solution! (Not I said long lasting gains - so I'm excluding steroids)
Forget looking for a magic potion and lining the pockets of some marketing firm, you can't buy muscle, you have to earn it, and it doesn't come easy. Just Do It! Eat heaps and lift heavy that is. Go hard or go home.
Personally I havent been lifting for the last 12 months. My body was sick of it. But I still got my muscles.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2007 4:47:35 GMT
Forget looking for a magic potion and lining the pockets of some marketing firm, you can't buy muscle, you have to earn it, and it doesn't come easy. Just Do It! Eat heaps and lift heavy that is. Go hard or go home. Well said !!! .... just go easy on the cupcakes, plus other fats and oils.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2007 5:23:15 GMT
Creatine does work if you take it properly, but I wouldn't go on it for a long period of time. I've done it briefly before but I like to keep it natural so I don't take it anymore.
Some say it does have some side effects, but whether it does or doesn't at this point in time, you never know when they might come out with research results that outline some serious issues with it.
I would say try it, but don't over do it. Just so you can experience it for your self... Here are a couple of tips:
- buy pure creatine
- Dissolve it in dextrose or grape juice or some other juices. The reason is that you need the sugars to transport the creatine to the muscle. Simple sugars as those found in grape juice cause Insulin to be produced which is needed to push the creatine to the muscles... I would pick dextrose
- DON'T mix it with citric juices
- Drink a lot of water throughout the day
- You have to work out hard. Don't just take it then slack off at the gym and expect results
- You won't see results on the first or second day... keep consistent
- You don't need to do any loading
- get a good quality creatine, it makes a difference
- Take 5g if you're doing moderate/normal workouts. Do 10 if you're working out like crazy and insanely
- It's good to take it right after training. If you're doing 10g, then break it in to 2 drinks; one in the morning and one right after the workout
I still say it's better to be natural, but if you do it moderately, it might give you a good push.
Good luck with that
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Dec 14, 2007 6:58:26 GMT
Good post Sargon. And with respect I wish to pick it apart a little and add my take on those points. This is not adressed to anyone in particular, its purely my philosophy on Training. How would you define "Work"? It doesn't solely and directly do anything, except make poo. They say it gives you cramps and my use of it demonstrated it does. It is a naturally occuring element synthesised by your body by the ingredients supplied in a red meat diet at about 1-2grams per day. If that got us through the last 400,000 years why add 10,000% to that intake? (says the vegetarian) Hear hear! Just to add that good workouts fuelled with Creatine can't substitute, only compliment the MOST IMPORTANT factors in muscle growth - Food & Rest. Just dont take it consistantly. Cycle it as per true swordsman. The reason for this is the same as cycling steroids. If you supply your body with something (creatine, testosterone, ephedrine) it shuts down the bits that would normally be used to sysnthesise that chemical. After prolonged periods those bit will break from lack of use. Regarding results: You're strength should improve from workout to workout. If not you are lacking either of intensity/ food/ or rest. But visible results will be at least a few months coming. Just so you dont get despondent. Thats the whole problem with Western Culture - we are tought we can expect things overnight, just from buying a product or popping a pill. Just watch some late night ad programs. It seems to sell. Normal / moderate workouts will never build any muscle, don't even bother. Spend the time with your family. Thats not to say they aren't beneficial, but aren't you taking Creatine coz you want to pack on muscle without Roids? Insane and BRIEF is the only way to stimulate muscle growth. The exception being starting off a workout program from a layoff, or a beginner. I agree with the rest of what you have said Sargon. If anyone wants any help getting a muscle building program I'm more than happy to direct them (as I'm sure Tsafa would be; Tsafa is an expert at sword fighting training , where I have only studied bodybuilding). I have been training and studying muscle building on and off for 20 years. Training is not that hard to do if you are commited, you just need to have a tolerance for discomfort. The hard bit is weeding through all the BS and marketing. Also good technique is near impossible to learn, but there is a book I recommend on that: Stuart Mc Roberts' : The insiders tell all handbook on weight-training technique. Regarding Muscle-building Training; I believe that Mike Mentzer's philosophy (and it is philosophy - try reading one of his books) is the best. 10-20 minutes per workout, at least 10 days between same bodypart workouts. The other thing is to accept that 180lbs of muscley physique is a damn impressive achievement, and about all you should look for if you're natural. Keepin it real Brendan
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2007 7:40:23 GMT
I had not heard about exogenous creatine negative feedback before but thanks for mentioning it, will try to investigate further...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2007 14:45:53 GMT
Good post Sargon. And with respect I wish to pick it apart a little and add my take on those points. This is not adressed to anyone in particular, its purely my philosophy on Training. How would you define "Work"? It doesn't solely and directly do anything, except make poo. They say it gives you cramps and my use of it demonstrated it does. It is a naturally occuring element synthesised by your body by the ingredients supplied in a red meat diet at about 1-2grams per day. If that got us through the last 400,000 years why add 10,000% to that intake? (says the vegetarian) Hear hear! Just to add that good workouts fuelled with Creatine can't substitute, only compliment the MOST IMPORTANT factors in muscle growth - Food & Rest. Just dont take it consistantly. Cycle it as per true swordsman. The reason for this is the same as cycling steroids. If you supply your body with something (creatine, testosterone, ephedrine) it shuts down the bits that would normally be used to sysnthesise that chemical. After prolonged periods those bit will break from lack of use. Regarding results: You're strength should improve from workout to workout. If not you are lacking either of intensity/ food/ or rest. But visible results will be at least a few months coming. Just so you dont get despondent. Thats the whole problem with Western Culture - we are tought we can expect things overnight, just from buying a product or popping a pill. Just watch some late night ad programs. It seems to sell. Normal / moderate workouts will never build any muscle, don't even bother. Spend the time with your family. Thats not to say they aren't beneficial, but aren't you taking Creatine coz you want to pack on muscle without Roids? Insane and BRIEF is the only way to stimulate muscle growth. The exception being starting off a workout program from a layoff, or a beginner. I agree with the rest of what you have said Sargon. If anyone wants any help getting a muscle building program I'm more than happy to direct them (as I'm sure Tsafa would be; Tsafa is an expert at sword fighting training , where I have only studied bodybuilding). I have been training and studying muscle building on and off for 20 years. Training is not that hard to do if you are commited, you just need to have a tolerance for discomfort. The hard bit is weeding through all the BS and marketing. Also good technique is near impossible to learn, but there is a book I recommend on that: Stuart Mc Roberts' : The insiders tell all handbook on weight-training technique. Regarding Muscle-building Training; I believe that Mike Mentzer's philosophy (and it is philosophy - try reading one of his books) is the best. 10-20 minutes per workout, at least 10 days between same bodypart workouts. The other thing is to accept that 180lbs of muscley physique is a damn impressive achievement, and about all you should look for if you're natural. Keepin it real Brendan Works: as in, you will get more energy and you won't tire as quickly, giving your muscles a chance to work harder and you will notice results. Creatine is a naturally occurring substance, but you only get 1g/day but by the time the food is cooked/etc that 1g's effect gets reduced. Taking creatine will give your muscles a boost. When I said keep consistent, I wasn't talking about taking creatine, I was talking about the workouts; you can't workout one day a week and keep taking creatine daily. Strength does improve with the proper work out routine, rest and diet, but creatine will give you a push if you want to give it a try. "Normal / moderate workouts will never build any muscle, don't even bother. Spend the time with your family. That’s not to say they aren't beneficial, but aren't you taking Creatine coz you want to pack on muscle without Roids? Insane and BRIEF is the only way to stimulate muscle growth. The exception being starting off a workout program from a layoff, or a beginner. " Moderate is a relative term; what's moderate to an athlete and/or body builder is not the same as moderate for an average family man. I used "moderate" to describe someone who works out 3-4 times a week, but with the proper intensity - If you're a pro and work out every day then 10g would be the amount you should take. It's more important to work out smart than work out hard. This means your workout structure matters, rest is essential and eating the proper foods is important. Oh, Luke, if you're not already training, I would say don't use it already. Your muscles will improve quite a bit if you're a beginner anyway so stay away from creatine if that's the case. Again, I don't do it myself although I have done so in the past... I'm not endorsing its use - I actually prefer things done naturally, but I just wanted to share my knowledge of creatine Sorry for my brevity, but I'm already late for work...
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Dec 15, 2007 5:28:25 GMT
Sounds about right.
However my belief is to only lift weight 2 days a week maximum for best results building muscle, unless you're on juice. Even 1 day a week is fine. My workouts go around 30 minutes - stimulate the growth then get out. You grow outside the gym. And it takes 10 days to get stronger than before. About 7 days to recover from the damage, and 3 more to get stronger I reckon. If anyone doesn't believe me time a cut healing next time you cut yourself sharpening swords.
I do think Creatine helps, but isn't a vital ingredient. So many other things come before Creatine in importance.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2007 6:14:24 GMT
Sounds about right. However my belief is to only lift weight 2 days a week maximum for best results building muscle, unless you're on juice. Even 1 day a week is fine. My workouts go around 30 minutes - stimulate the growth then get out. You grow outside the gym. And it takes 10 days to get stronger than before. About 7 days to recover from the damage, and 3 more to get stronger I reckon. If anyone doesn't believe me time a cut healing next time you cut yourself sharpening swords. I do think Creatine helps, but isn't a vital ingredient. So many other things come before Creatine in importance. I totally agree with your last statement! Regarding training; you're right, growth takes place outside the gym; rest is more important than simply lifting every day, so it is more important to work out smart than hard! One small difference in opinion is regarding the frequency of workouts. I think it is best is to work out 3 times a week, but do short workouts that hit all your muscles - 30 min as you said (or 45 min max) I no longer believe in muscle isolation and splitting workouts by muscle groups since you truly can't isolate a muscle (you can't work out chest - ex bench - without working out other muscle groups - shoulders and triceps especially). So to maximize gain, I would workout the entire body while changing exercises and reps 3 days a week giving your self 48 hrs of rest.... but this isn't about ceatine anymore so I digress
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Dec 15, 2007 6:48:37 GMT
True, we've deviated from the original question. I have started a new thread on training for Muscle Growth which can be found here:
/index.cgi?action=display&board=swordtraining&thread=1197701235
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2007 15:08:31 GMT
Oh, Luke, if you're not already training, I would say don't use it already. Your muscles will improve quite a bit if you're a beginner anyway so stay away from creatine if that's the case. Well, I worked out for about a year then got bit by a brown recluse and was prihbited to work out for 10 months. A few weeks ago i started working out again, and the guy I work out with swears by the stuff (creatine). The thing is, Im a big guy, and I certainly consume my fair share of protein (I live mostly on a diet of steak, fish, eggs, etc.). MY friend is a lot thinner and likely gets a fair amount of protein from the creatine. Is creatine really neccesary for a guy like me? I already gain muscle with ease if I work hard (I know it sounds crazy, but my bench-press goes up about 5 pounds a week, sometimes more. THe problem is sometimes I get lazy and take breaks of a few months or more) And thats without creatine.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Dec 15, 2007 15:59:18 GMT
The thing is, Im a big guy, and I certainly consume my fair share of protein (I live mostly on a diet of steak, fish, eggs, etc.). MY friend is a lot thinner and likely gets a fair amount of protein from the creatine. OMG Luke you are really scaring me! Creatine is not a protein supplement. I repeat: "There is ZERO protein in Creatine." Do not listen to a word this guy tells you, and do not start taking any chemical (Creatine) until you properly research what it is and how it works. Man your body is fragile be careful what you put in it. You clearly don't need to change much, and with results like you describe you could get killer results if you really applied yourself to studying diet, form, and techniques. You must have naturally good genetics. Training stimulus + Food + Ample Rest = Growth, simple. Don't over complicate it. And don't take advice from some skinny guy. Glad you asked before doing anything. I'm not saying never to take it, but to understand what it is and how it works before you do. And that you clearly don't NEED it.
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