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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 12:01:46 GMT
So I have noticed that there is some use of water buffalo horn mekugi pegs out there. Does anyone have experience with these? How does it compare?
Are there other materials people have used? If water buffalo horn is used and works well, then I could imagine bone and antler might work also. Though I have never heard of either.
I like the bamboo for sure, but would be interested in learning about other materials that work well. To find out how they compare with eachother etc.
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Post by Dan Davis on May 16, 2010 12:22:59 GMT
Water buffalo horn (cow horn, etc.) works well because it is made of compressed hair. It has a resiliency that bone and antler do not.
Water buffalo horn is more durable than bamboo but tends to slip out of the mekugi-ana more easily and become lost. The ends are polished but the middle is left rough to provide friction; the more often it is removed, the less hold it has. It is often used on higher-end furniture but I would not recommend it on your dojo cutter (you do train at a dojo, right?).
Brass is often used as mekugi because it is durable and more resilient, but again, not really recommended for furniture that sees high use.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 12:40:52 GMT
Good things to know Dan thanks.
I sort of had the feeling that the horn was more for display/ornamental carry but good to hear the reason.
I plan on sticking with bamboo, unless some amazing thing pops out that would be better for some odd reason. This thread was more just to get some idea about the other lesser spoken of or seen pegs, along with the more common bamboo. Hear how they differ and compare etc.
That was very interesting that the horn was compressed hair and that was why it was more functional than bone or antler. I figured there had to be a good reason I had not heard of these used.
How about other woods? Are there other woods besides bamboo that work? Hemp for example? Would hemp with its strong long fibers make good mekugi pegs? Infact would hemp actually make better pegs now that I think of it?
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 15:28:59 GMT
I would have to say that hemp would be unsuitable for meguki. The center of hemp or any pot plant is very soft and has no real strength to hold up to the force that's put on the meguki. Stick with bamboo. Like mie pappy alway said don't fix it if it ain't broke
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 16:01:10 GMT
I would have to say that hemp would be unsuitable for meguki. The center of hemp or any pot plant is very soft and has no real strength to hold up to the force that's put on the meguki. Stick with bamboo. Like mie pappy alway said don't fix it if it ain't broke The center of bamboo is hollow if you hadn't realized, and hemp is not pot.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 16:35:49 GMT
Seems rather hard to find a good place for hemp lumber, so for just availability reasons bamboo would definitely be better. I will have to keep a look out for some hemp wood products that may be used as mekugi to take a closer look at the idea.
I think budodeshi you failed to get the point of this thread, which is to compare different materials that are used. My suggestion of hemp is not out of wanting to switch to using it, but more out of curiosity of available choices. The availability and probably higher price to get hemp mekugi pegs would probably not be worth the little bit more strength the hemp fibers might give. But given the high strength of this natural fiber it does raise the question of if it would work in my mind. The other problem would probably be in that pegs made of hemp would probably need to be made into a processed wood material. Hemp is made into particle boards and plywoods, and it would probably be some sort of manufactured peg (for a mekugi) rather than a cut piece of hemp.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 16:37:21 GMT
I also noted a couple of combination pegs in some swords. The top peg being bamboo, and the bottom brass? Thoughts?
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 17:44:04 GMT
I also noted a couple of combination pegs in some swords. The top peg being bamboo, and the bottom brass? Thoughts? Hmm, that is interesting. A combo, I wonder if it was just someone using spare parts they had available? Or was this a production sword that was new like that?
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 18:17:45 GMT
I just got two swords and went to take them apart to "clean" and photograph for review, and I beat up the meguki in booth of them, to the point that I could not use them again, good thing I got extras! When I went to reassemble them I "modified" them so they would not "stick" so badly, so I would be interested in other materials fore use.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 20:23:02 GMT
Fibrous is just one of the properties of a good mekugi. Aspen is very fibrous and hard to break because of this, but it's quite soft. Bamboo is a very hard material, and cured and smoked bamboo asd it is when used for mekugi is even tougher. It's gonna be difficult to find a replacement that has the properties of bamboo.
To give you an idea of the properties of bamboo, read this:
Compared with wood, bamboo has many advantages: high strength, large tenacity, strong rigidity, tractability, and has better physical mechanical performance. Bamboo's static bending strength, rigidity, and strength of extension can be up to than twice that of wood, Folding strength and surface degree of bamboo flooring is greater than that of wood flooring. Bamboo is harder than Red Oak and even Australian Cypress. Bamboo flooring also contracts and expands 50% less than hardwoods. Besides its beauty and durability, bamboo is the most environmentally sound flooring available. Technically, bamboo is a sustainable, fast-growing grass that offers an alternative to the world's limited suppy of hardwood.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 20:24:25 GMT
I was thinking on using Allen screws (like the one you found on handguns or exactly like the one you found on roller skates that have 2 one big and one small) but i think i would need a perfect fit between them and a tsuka made for it, but its the ideal material and strong too if it hold the user weight and constant moving and abuse on roller blades it can handle a katana easy.. Like this ones and the bar that connect them. You can also use a big one cut it to the specs of your needs and use it like a single peg that needs a tool (allen tool) to take it out, use the katana hole as like screwing a screw it will stay there trust me, once is there is going nowhere..
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 20:33:04 GMT
If you use a rigid bolt, it can crack the tsuka. Cheness uses a brass mekugi, but as far as I know only as the second mekugi. There is a reason for that.
If you look at sword constructions only the sandwich grips or very sturdily built are bolted rigidly through the grip.
You can find the bolt construction in tanto, but these are seldom for actual use.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 20:39:16 GMT
If you use a rigid bolt, it can crack the tsuka. Cheness uses a brass mekugi, but as far as I know only as the second mekugi. There is a reason for that. If you look at sword constructions only the sandwich grips or very sturdily built are bolted rigidly through the grip. You can find the bolt construction in tanto, but these are seldom for actual use. How entirely truth this is? I never seen it before and the ones that talks about it are the traditionalists, so i dont take they word on modern day materials just because of the fact that they are just traditionalists, not offence there tho.. and they have something in japan similar to it the neji-menuki if im right in the name..
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 20:52:20 GMT
If you use a rigid bolt, it can crack the tsuka. Cheness uses a brass mekugi, but as far as I know only as the second mekugi. There is a reason for that. If you look at sword constructions only the sandwich grips or very sturdily built are bolted rigidly through the grip. You can find the bolt construction in tanto, but these are seldom for actual use. Interesting, maybe this was what Bryn was talking about with combo of brass and bamboo pegs. Are there benefits for having the combo of brass and bamboo that you know of Ichiban? It would seem to me, if your going to have one bamboo might as well have two. Unless it is just for looks maybe? I personally wouldn't want to go with threaded bolts, just knowing how vibrations like to unthread things. Also well, I wouldn't want the recessed hex in the grip.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 21:04:07 GMT
according to hyoujinsama (utube video) on japanese sword parts 2 mekugis are unnecessary
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 21:24:09 GMT
Ah, that was it. The Chenness use the double pegs with the top one being smoked/cured bamboo, the bottom one being brass. I'd be interested to hear the theories, but It seems to me like the top peg would recieve the most lateral stress, hence the bamboo for some flexibility but also strength. If the bottom one is just insurance, I guess it makes sense to have a harder, if not necessarily stronger, peg. I dunno. I always feel a little better w/ two mekugi, but that's 'cause I'm just like that.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 22:05:47 GMT
If you use a rigid bolt, it can crack the tsuka. Cheness uses a brass mekugi, but as far as I know only as the second mekugi. There is a reason for that. If you look at sword constructions only the sandwich grips or very sturdily built are bolted rigidly through the grip. You can find the bolt construction in tanto, but these are seldom for actual use. How entirely truth this is? I never seen it before and the ones that talks about it are the traditionalists, so i dont take they word on modern day materials just because of the fact that they are just traditionalists, not offence there tho.. and they have something in japan similar to it the neji-menuki if im right in the name.. I'm no expert, and no traditionalist, (I often try different solutions other than traditional) but when I've built katana I've asked myself "What function has this part, and how does it interact with the other parts?" And the answer is not always obvious, and often surprises me. But there are good reasons. For example, I just found out that the mekugi is actually in contact with the nakago only on the rear end of the mekugi ana, and the mekugi ana is actually slightly bigger than the mekugi and the mekugi ana in the tsuka. Why? Because a cut will move the nakago just a tad in the tsuka, and this way there will be no stress on the mekugi. Logic, but not obvious. A production katana mekugi is more or less hand in glove fit, and that means there is more stress on the construction. If you add slight tsuka movement because of bad tsuka fit and material, badly fitted habaki (never right on a prod sword) and straight nagako shape, there is far more stress on the whole construction than a nihonto. If you add a rigid bolt in there instead of a bamboo mekugi, the bolt will transfer more power from the cut to the tsuka. And with a tsuka covered in samegawa and ito you won't see the crack. The bolt construction simply puts more stress on the construction, and that is why you seldom see the peened grip bolts on other than either sanwiched grips or a bare hardwood handle. If a crack appears, you will see it instantly. As said, the neji-menuki (or bolt construction as I put it) is often found on tanto or non functional ceremonial swords. Some tanto didn't even have a mekugi. But a tanto is different from a sword, and the stress put on the construction is far less than on a sword. As for the Cheness brass pin, there is a good reason. The second mekugi is placed in production swords because it's needed for safety. And the reason is the bad tsuka fit. With premade tsuka there can be a glitch between the nakago and the tsuka in the area that is hard to reach, the rear end. It's pretty easy to shim the tsuka at the front or from sideways movement, but almost impossible at the rear. So the answer is to drill a second mekugi-ana to keep the nakago from moving. I have received swords where the nakago moved dangerously when the second mekugi was removed. So during cutting much of the stress is put there, and it's potentially dangerous. So a good test if the tsuka needs replacement is to remove the second mekugi. If it shifts, it needs to be shimmed.If it shifts a lot; new tsuka! So it makes sense to put a brass mekugi in the second mekugi-ana, but it needs to be dead tight, and the wood around must be very sound. The first mekugi will handle most of the shock.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 22:16:58 GMT
Ok got it.....
But i still want to try the bolt lol.... Lets say, if i make the hole bigger on the nakago (i have two blades without holes yet) and make a custom tsuka and i use a bolt that not put enough pressure on the tsuka or nakago itself it would sit tight and just hold the rear end of the nakago hole on the tsuka... So the blade have a play that works like a shock and solver and the bolt is the holding thing that prevents the blade getting out of the tsuka..
what you think on that...
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 23:03:27 GMT
My head nearly explodes from thinking of it. I don't know, if I were to use bolts I would go for another construction than traditional as it's optimalized for just that. But aren't those bolts rather big to use on a tsuka? You only have about 20-25 mm for both heads and threads.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 23:25:00 GMT
I can find any type of bolt i wanted to, even small ones that looks like a mekugi..
Let me try to explain it a little bit better, so bare with me
All the concern here is, the screw been so freaking tight with the nakago and tsuka which put enough tension on the whole thing right?
But it makes sense to me tho, as a matter of fact if i decide to make the hole bigger on the nakago and use a screw that needs 2 screws that interconnect together would be ok.
There is not pressure between the tsuka or nakago hole, the screw would sit there like a holding bar, so the blade dont get out flying from the tsuka lol...
And the nakago hole been big have enough room to work as a shock and solver and the screw would be the safety measure.
So maybe and just maybe, the nakago hole have to be big enough to work as a shock and solver (so in other words, it have a play when you strike) and the bamboo peg is the safety measure that prevents the blade getting out of the tsuka and putting a end on that play, so in the end it really dont matter what material you use (has to be strong enough of course) to receive the shock from the blade while you strike.
Thats what i think.
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