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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2010 16:00:32 GMT
Hey guys Don't know if you've seen this already, there is a pretty darn nice show on youtube, called "weapons that made Britain". I've only watched "the sword" so far and I think it's pretty nice. Lots of correct and interesting information and even some awesome swords and cutting. Check it out:
I like part 7 and 8 best. Wonder what you think about clay being a good material for sword testing.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2010 16:21:28 GMT
Sounds like a lot of scratching and an easier beginning for rust.
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Post by brotherbanzai on May 14, 2010 16:52:19 GMT
Watched part 7 and 8, looks pretty interesting.
Depends on the type of clay being used...
Oil based clay is very consistent, doesn't contain any grog that would scratch the blade and can be used over and over again. It's also pretty expensive at a few dollars a pound.
Water based clay, as the name suggests, contains moisture that wouldn't be good for the blade. The levels of grog in water clay vary depending on the type and could scratch the blade. It's very cheap but is also not consistent since it stiffens and hardens as it looses moisture.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2010 17:43:14 GMT
VERY cool! The tests were interesting that the viking sword and the cut and thrust practically had the same effectiveness. And I like the historical context, showing Talhoffer moves, etc.
One thing I always wondered about were all the moves that involve gripping the blade and using the pommel as a bludgeon. How do you do that without getting cut? Is it only feasible with armor?
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2010 17:53:37 GMT
Hmm not sure about the tests, to me it looks like they only measured how much force there was in the cuts and thrusts and then the weapon used with both hands will obviously win.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2010 18:19:38 GMT
Hmm not sure about the tests, to me it looks like they only measured how much force there was in the cuts and thrusts and then the weapon used with both hands will obviously win. But if that's the case, the longsword should have done better than the viking sword in performance.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2010 18:26:33 GMT
It did, the only 2 handed sword, the warsword won. What makes me think they only measured the force is that the spatula tip warsword performed best in both cut and thrust (and it doesn't really have a tip for thrusting). And that the Saxon and late 15th century sword were pretty much equal in the thrust. This leaves me to thinking that the only thing they really measured is how much force he puts on the swords in a cut or thrust.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2010 18:31:41 GMT
Oh, I thought the 15th century sword was two handed. I'll have to go back and watch. Yeah, I guess you were right. I suppose that opens up questions about if clay is a very accurate indicator for how a sword will work against a human target. Either way it was still a good program.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2010 18:36:38 GMT
I'm not sure bout the 15the century one, grips is longer then the Saxon but blade seems even with the Saxon. And both had similar performance in the cut and thrust according to the tests they did. The program was good but they should have thought more about their tests. The tests just don't make sense to me, maybe the clay wasn't deep enough to see any difference in the thrusts but I think with the needle like tip the 15th century should have outperformed the Saxon on the thrust.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2010 20:54:10 GMT
As to the murder stroke, holding the blade, I think the reason is diamond profile swords probably were kept as sharp as lenticulars mostly cause your trying to shove the point and thrust alot of the time. Also I reckon it wasnt done at least without gloves and the GREAT knowelege and practice in maintaining the grip so you didnt get cut. We've seen a youtube vid of german practicinors tug o warring a sharp blade and then tatami cutting the next second.
As to the clay, its not an accurate indicator for the human body but its accurate as a means tester across the blade range and figures would be adjusted for fleshy tissue if you wanted.
You could tell it was oil based clay by how greasy it was, slick and clean. I was'nt overly surprised by the similarity of spatulate and diamond thrusting, I mean the diamond profile was mostly a response to plate armour, lenticulars were flesh biters and could be good for maille, that why lenticulars saw such a big reign from Type X to XIII over 6-700 years at least.
Bear in mind to they performed these tests at the Royal Military College of Science at Shrivinum where they would test all manner of things and likely the tests were designed for optimal data collection and even though they didnt touch on it here, extrapolation and analysis could be done to apply it to a flesh and/or armor template
I downloaded all of them, frankly the best doco I've seen since Reclaiming the Blade. Even though they use stage fighting alot at least its the new generation style with actual historical WMA influence. Good Stuff, they need Mike Loades to do another lot
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2010 20:55:28 GMT
Against soft targets, the round tip on the viking does work very well, only against hard targets you'll find the XVIII thrusts a lot better. Anyway, that gripping of the sword... well, I personally believe that only works with gaunlets but there are guys who think (and try to prove it) it can also be done without. Thing is, I know it's possible to HOLD a sword that way, even apply some drawing movement but a hit? No way, I'm convinced a really sharp sword would slice your hands open. Mike did a vid where he performed that murderstrike but he wore gloves and the sword wasn't that sharp. So i still need to see such a cut done with a really sharp sword and without gloves. It's pretty much the same story with halfswording, I also believe you need gauntlets for that but some guys will disagree to that too. Some of the fighting moves he did were nonsense, I mean they exsisted but you'd never teach guys who hold a sword in hand for the first time to throw someone over your shoulder or to use a pommel strike. These guys were so slow, you'd never come that far, they'd simply miss a parry and that's it, no fancy techniques are necessary. Just the very basic cuts and huten.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2010 23:51:01 GMT
Bearing in mind you still gotta reach a wide demographic with what you film, it wasnt filmed just for us lot........ but its still the best doco I've seen in a while, sigh ........ Peter Woodwards Conquest series could of been so much better if they had done proper research for it. *whack* Godendag to you sir ........ or is it Guten Tag ........ or Good Day ....... so confused
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Dom T.
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Post by Dom T. on May 14, 2010 23:58:46 GMT
It's pretty much the same story with halfswording, I also believe you need gauntlets for that but some guys will disagree to that too. Not sure if it would be considered half-swording, but if the blade's got a ricasso, you could grab that bare-handed. ;D Grabbing the sharp part of a blade bare-handed doesn't sound right to me either though. I mean, even if you don't cut yourself whist holding it, in a fight your hand could slip up or down the blade, no? That would definitely cut the hand, methinks. I liked the few parts I actually watched. Quite interesting. I've not seen Reclaiming the Blade yet. I've been meaning to, but y'know how it is... with... everything. On the whole, concussion via smacking the helmet, didn't soldiers wear some sort of padded arming cap under it? That should lessen the damage to the head at least a little bit, right? I don't know too much about this stuff. Been focused on Japanese side of swords and whatnot for a long while. Got a lot to learn about Euros, yes.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2010 0:39:57 GMT
I happed upon this once on youtube while searching for cutting vids.
I thought it to be a little strange that he was testing the swords on clay cubes but it made it more interesting I guess. Although, as someone who has been classically trained as a Chef, I would disagree with him that clay is like flesh, if that really is why he chose clay. In the end I think he was excited to get a few new swords and he didn't want to nick or scratch them up. Thought quite dense that clay looked pretty soft.
As for the gripping the blade of a sharp sword with a bare or leather gloved hand I have wondered as well. I suppose if the blade was chisel sharp then it might mot be as bad. But even then, with the force one would generate with a swing only to be stopped as it came smashing down on your opponents face or whatever, would be enough to cut you. The left over energy from the force of the blow has to go somewhere. Back out of the sharp of the blade and in to your hand.
Maybe it wasn't a move performed that often.
I don't know. I need to learn more about it.
Great movie though.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2010 3:07:01 GMT
I saw that a while back and it never occurred to me to bring it back here and share it. Cool of you to do so, dude. I thought it was an interesting and well done documentary, I haven't watched the others yet but I intend to.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2010 8:41:02 GMT
I'm glad you guys like it. About that clay, I doubt he thought it was a good substitute to test the cutting power against flesh but a very good and most importantly always equal material to test the general cutting power of different sword types. You know, the density is always the same so he could compare his four sword types. We often see halfswording done in period manuals like talhoffer or liechtenauer. Thing is, most of the time it shows armored combat with gauntlets. There are however some pics of guys grabbing the blade with bare hands during armored combat. Some guys think this proves that you can actually grab a sharp blade without gloves. What I think is that these blades simply weren't sharp. Especially against armor you don't need a sharp blade. In the late 15th century a sword type called "Bohrschwerter" came up. These were thrusting sword with a very narrow but thick blade without edges, only used to penetrate mail and break through gaps in the knight's armor. So my theory is that the swords used for halfswording simply weren't sharp or at least only the upper half was. Halfswording was only performed in the lower half and you don't need an edge there anyway.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2010 9:02:15 GMT
I think you're right, the clay doesn't need to equal anything else, it just needs to be the same for each sword. Once you've got that, you've got a fair comparison. Oh, and +1 for pointing this out, I forgot that at first.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2010 14:27:50 GMT
Right you are Chenessfan. I haven't watched this vid in a while. The clay was just for constancy of cut. After watching the documentary again I have been reminded about how beautiful those swords he had made are. That war sword is magnificent. Love that blackened hex pommel and guard.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2010 16:01:29 GMT
The Henry sword was pretty sweet too... heck ALL the swords were really sweet!! Loved that falchion too. Bet they were pretty darn expensive... won't even start to think about the price tag of the pattern welded sword made especially for this series. They got a nice budget for sure!!
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2010 20:16:56 GMT
Just stumbled across another show of Mike Loades called Weapon masters. So far I've only seen "The chakram", the throwing ring of the Sikh warriors. You guys might want to take a look at that too. It's a bit similar to Myth busters but still interesting stuff.
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