Dom T.
Member
Success, depress, ambition. Progress, regress, recognition.
Posts: 766
|
Post by Dom T. on May 8, 2010 3:49:29 GMT
Oh, Dan, thanks for killing that ridiculous thread about making a sheet metal sword. Ugh. I linked it to my friend and was like, "That guy's being dumb" and he was like, "How is he dumb? He's not being dumb in those posts" *smacks head* I'm going to give you +1, Mr. Moderator Sir. I don't want to be mean, but... I dunno, that was just so... never mind. I'll give you +1, Mr. Fatbucket, whenever I can. That description was pretty funny. ;D (*Done) Hey, mikeeman, maybe you shouldn't sell it at all. Well, that's just an idea. I personally wouldn't be happy selling someone something I didn't find... acceptable. Just me, of course. You've got to recoup the losses somehow, I guess. Might also be hard to find anyone here willing to buy something that isn't functional. In terms of designs... I'm not sure I can add anything that great. Maybe you could make it in the shape of one of those tactical swords. A tactical ninjato, if you will. Of course, the whole point of a tactical weapon is to only be functional and not be pretty, right? Something along those lines, I think.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 8, 2010 13:01:37 GMT
I can help you on this project well just how to do it. Just need to get all this technical word properly translated first. I will post the hold things in no times.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 8, 2010 13:54:25 GMT
Be remind that this was a method to created a knife from files which are made from W1,W2,W7,1084 , 1095,SK4or5 steel. And a credit to board.trekkingthai.com/board/show.php?forum_id=75&topic_no=196305&topic_id=198805What you need is... 1.Piece of metal [let call it M] 2. File lot of Files (to shape the steel) 3.Sand paper (shape&sharpen) 4.Saw (not really need it) These 2 is just another option 5. Forge 6. Clay (soil[from rice filed & termite nest]+ashes+ skel[hope i spell that right it a metal you get when you heated a metal can this thing came off]) Get that piece of steel.Draw a kissaki shape on it cut The M with saw (heated the steel will make it easier to saw or cut in to shape) When you get a straight M with point shape next start shaping it with a file and Finish it with sand paper that should be enough if you not going to heat treated it. I do recommenced this shape. So the heat treated way. For you guy who have forge or another study case. do the same things as above except don't sharpen it too much just to make shape first. Then heated the blade red (think it call normal line) once or twice. Next coat the blade with clay a lot on the back side and just a thin coat on the shape side. Next make a pattern on the clay.(Coat the whole blade wipe out clay on sharp side the clay that stay on the blade will make the pattern so you know what i mean) Do it like this and you get a straight hamon line(suguha if I'm correct?) This part I'm not guarantee if I put it right. Next austenite the blade it the forge then quench it. Clean the blade with saw you should get a good looikng hamon now. The last part is tempering the blade to toughen it(do this a few time around 210-230C). You sholud get somethings like this. You can polish it if you want to. Heated Blade Shaped it clayed it heat then quench Clean it of then tempering it. Done. The easiest way is cut that metal bar into shape>File it>sharpen it> Done.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 8, 2010 13:58:02 GMT
If somethings is not right. Do post it so I' ill try and fix it. This is not a forging method so don't expect it to be too tough.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 8, 2010 18:53:45 GMT
I didn't want anyone to buy it. Just pay shipping. The cost for parts that I would need would be about $10-$20. Maybe none. I might have some other steel I can use for a tsuba.
However, this thread is going anywhere except where I wanted it to. Mr. Davis, feel free to remove this thread. Anyone ACTUALLY interested, just PM me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2010 11:49:07 GMT
Wow, Here I was actually thinking this would be a great discussion and a great way to make a prototype Ninjato (or Shinobigatana or Ninja Ken as it is sometimes called) with a blend of everything we know about a "Ninjato" (this term Ninjato is rarely used in Ninjutsu) and it turned into this?
I think some people missed the whole point of this thread IMO.
Oh well, I am taking it serious and Mikeeman321, if this works out, I would LOVE to talk deeper about taking it to production and making a REAL Ninjato.
So here I go with my ideas and I have to say I consulted my Sensei on this, many other of my fellow ninjutsu students and here are some ideas we came up with. I understand some will not agree but we can definately discuss.
1- The Saya. It needs to be longer and have a breathing hole. Simple. It should have a pointed metal tip. After discussing this we felt the metal pointed tip would serve as a secondary thrusting weapon. Again, simple and practical. The extra length would of course hold the blinding powers or salt (Believe me, salt is a very effective blinding substance, LOL) The sageo needs to be longer than a normal Katana sageo. Ninja often used it as a climbing rope or a trip wire type of tool along door ways and path ways. As well, it served well to bind an enemy if need be. As well, there would be 2 small slits capable of concealing a straight shuirken. Easily withdrawn and used as a stabbing or throwing weapon. Effective in both close quater and longer ranged combat.
2- The Blade- I feel it should be straight. Despite what some may think here, a straight blade WAS in fact used and was nothing more than a piece of steel ground down on one edge. If a curved blade was used, it was usually a reformed blade that was taken off a fallen Samurai. Ninja couldnt afford nor had the skills of a blacksmith to make a curved blade.
Remember, the "Ninja or Kenoichi" were simple people. Famers, fishermen, priests, labourers who just wanted to live a peacefull life free of Samurai rule. They used simple weapons readily available and cheap enough to discard without worrying about cost. Kenoichi would often labour as cooks, servants, school teachers, Geisha to get closer to their enemy and provide vital intel to the clan. Not to "Attack" but to simply learn of their intentions and to stay on top of their plans.
There are more advantages and uses of a straight blade. The Ninja used their swords as a tool. A tool to dig, to climb, to pry. The Kissaki should be a straight and not curved. Again, better for prying and thrusting. No Bo-Hi. Generally I have learned it makes for a weaker blade and since the Ninja used a simple ground down piece of steel as a blade, a bo-hi would no have been an option. A Bo-HI is a Katana feature. Ninja used to conceal their swords as a walking cane. Walking canes are not curved so again, a straight blade is more practical.
3- The Tsuba. This was a difficult choice because it was much harder to conceal a sword with a Tsuba. But after much debate, the Tsuba proved to important. It can be used to stand on when climbing a wall when a Grappling hook isnt available or again as a prying tool. It would be square and a little thicker than a a Katana Tsuba for standing in. Inserting the sword into the ground, or leaning it against a wall while attaching the Sageo to the Tsuba gives one an extra 2 - 21/2 feet of boost for scaling a wall, gate or climbing a tree with no lower limbs. Then when at the top of the wall or gate or tree, the sword can be pulled by the Sageo up to you for use again. That would also mean the Habaki should be a bit thicker than a standard one on a Katana to support the body weight. We liked the idea of having 3 Star Shuriken fitted behind the Tsuba as well. Again, a secondary weapon if needed. Samurai travelled in groups and often out numbered the Ninja. The shuriken helped even the odds a little more.
4- The Tsuka- The Wrap would be simpler and could also be used as an extra length of cord. It would serve as the same purpose the Saya Sageo would be. In addition, it could be used to "Swing" the Shinobigatana in a circular motion to keep enemies at a distance. More of a distraction than anything but it gave valuable time to the Ninja to think out his next move. If a tree limb is too high to be boosted from by the Shinobigatana, the sword could be thrown, much like a grappling hook to a higher limb and then used to climb up. The extra weight of the sword would allow for further throwing distance of the rope. Combined with the pointed tip on the Saya, the extra long Sageo and tsuka wrap cord and the blinding powders, the 5 possible shuriken, the Shinobigatana would actually be 11 to 13 possible weapons in one. A truly effective "tool" of combat and far more versatile than a samurai's Katana.
This is just an idea of what I and a few other practitioners of Ninjutsu would like a Shinobigatana or Ninja Ken to be. I understand some people feel the straight blade is a "hollywood" idea but I assure you it is not. It is well documented in historical scrolls. A curved blade is nothing more than a cutting tool and that is far too limited of a "tool" for the Ninja to carry. It would be considered impractical and a waste of space so to speak.
Ok, I got this started. Let's explore it more, What am I missing?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2010 13:10:24 GMT
Oh and FYI- There is no such thing as a "historical" ninjato; none, whatsoever, no matter what Stephen K. Hayes, Ashida Kim or Frank Dux say. The CORRECT term for a historical "ninja sword" is chisa-gatana (lit. "small katana") and apart from it's size (length) it was a katana. Pure and simple. Don't believe me? Ask Hatsumi-sensei. I did. I have heard it referred to ore often as a Ninja Ken or Shinobigatana. You are right, there is no such thing as a "Ninjato" The correct term in Ninjutsu as I have been educated in is Shinobigatana or Ninja Ken. I was actually corrected by Hatsumi through his translator at a question and answer period during a Tai Kai in the Smokey Mountains in Tennasee a few years back when in my question I reffered to the shinobigatana as a "sword". His response was to smile widely, chuckle and correct the term "sword" to shinobigatana and then answer my remaining question. He was always smiling, always laughing, always joking around. Do you mind if I ask where you had the honour of meeting Hatsumi Sensei or Dr. Hatsumi or whatever you want to call him? Did you get to train with him? Did you find him to be as aweinspiring as I did? I am not saying you are lying or even trying to question that you spoke with him, not by any means, I just like hearing other peoples stories of their encounters with him. I am jealous you got to speak with him. I have been training for 16 years and attended 4 Tai Kais with hinm there and never been able to meet him. I unfortunately did not get to train with him, I was only privledged to watch him demo. After witnessing his demos, I have to say, this man is the real thing. I saw him take down 12 of his students with absolutely no effort and with nothing but his body movement and a few throws and punches and kicks. I would pay ANY amout of money to get 1 hour of one on one time with him. I have so many questions Did you get the same feeling of awesomeness when you spoke with him? It was like magic when he walked in the room, you didn't see him at first, he was surronded by alot of his students but you KNEW he was there, you could almost feel it. I can't describe it exactly. He did however use a curved blade when he demo Ken-Jutsu. But then again, he just grabbed one from the wall, he never even looked at it prior to using it. To me, it showed he didnt care what blade was in his hand.
|
|
|
Post by Dan Davis on May 9, 2010 13:12:43 GMT
However, this thread is going anywhere except where I wanted it to. Mr. Davis, feel free to remove this thread. Anyone ACTUALLY interested, just PM me. No, I do not think I will do that; not yet. This is a discussion forum, and conversations often go somewhere not originally intended. I find this sufficiently "on topic" to allow its continuing existence. There have also been enough genuine responses to warrant your continuing participation, but that is not a necessity either. One very good thing has come out of this: An obviously experienced knife maker has joined us, and despite language barriers (evidently not too severe) he has immediately posted a tutorial (with pictures, lots of pictures) in an attempt to answer your question. I would like to welcome cateye to our family of knife makers.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2010 14:54:58 GMT
Mr Cateye, thanks for the tutorial. I might have to use it soon.
Mr Davis, it seems that Mr Canaduh has some incredible designs up his sleeve. I am going to pursue his designs, as they seem incredibly fun to try and put together. Thank you all for showing interest. And don't worry, the DRAGON'S SOUL SWORD OF FLAMING DEMONS HEART: DESTROYER OF EARTH is still on it's way. Just need to find a couple of dragon souls..... Anyone have any links for a dealer? Lol.
|
|
|
Post by Dan Davis on May 9, 2010 21:14:04 GMT
Do you mind if I ask where you had the honour of meeting Hatsumi Sensei or Dr. Hatsumi or whatever you want to call him? Did you get to train with him? Did you find him to be as aweinspiring as I did? I am not saying you are lying or even trying to question that you spoke with him, not by any means, I just like hearing other peoples stories of their encounters with him. I am jealous you got to speak with him. I met Hatsumi-san on my last trip to Japan back in 1983. I found him to be very friendly and outgoing with a wry sense of humor; our meeting was very casual and while I would not be surprised if he did remember me, I would also not expect it. He was unassuming and very careful about his explanations; and not at all as he has been reputed to be. Sorry, not much of a story.
|
|
|
Post by Dan Davis on May 9, 2010 21:17:20 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 10, 2010 23:41:05 GMT
Hmm.... A curved blade might be slightly difficult. I think I can pull it off though (maybe) The bar I have isn't very wide and is straight. Hence making a ninjato instead of a katana. But I'll try. I didn't notice this earlier, but I have no idea what grade the steel is. Just a bar of stock steel I got to practice with. And There is a particular member here (will go un-named) that said he was actually SOLD stock metal ninjato. So apparently they can be used. I just strongly suggest that you don't. I have never tested a stock metal sword and can only imagine it would end up bad for me and anyone around. Again, this is just for practice making a sword. BTW, visual designs are a little easier. If a description, please use blade measurement, kind of tsuba, length of tsuka, ect. full design if possible. Apparently I can't give kharma? LOL, I was sold some over the years. They were never meant to ut with, they were used for Kata etc. I broke mine, bent mine etc by trying to cut, trying to pry with it. But if one is just going to use them for practising kata etc, the stock metal sword is just fine. I learned the hard, expensive way you shouldn't try to use them as a "real" sword. This one will hopefully be a prototype. If it works, if it is liked, I see no reason why we cant approach a manufacturer and try to get some produced.
|
|