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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2010 6:21:25 GMT
Hi everyone. Long time lurker and collector, first time poster. Just want to start out by noting how helpful this website and forum has been as a resource, two thumbs up Anyway I've taken on more of an interest in branching out into other weapon types more often now. I recently picked up a typical spiked ball flail, but it only left me wanting more. I was checking out the wiki page for flails and took quite an interest in the one they show on the right. I've nicknamed it a "heavy flail" personally, since it's a two handed version of the flail, but as far as I can tell it's a militarized agricultural flail. I've only seen the ball n' chain style flail out there from vendors. Has anyone came across a vendor that sold this style flail before? Thanks
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2010 6:29:42 GMT
I haven't seen one, and since that style is fairly obscure I'm not sure you'd be able to get one at a reasonable price. If you wanted, I think that'd actually be relatively easy to make yourself, as long as you could find spikes. The rest looks to be wood and a metal chain. It is essentialy something a pesant would make and use, after all. (I might have to end up making one for the barley here!)
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2010 7:19:19 GMT
By the way, this seems to be an origional weaponaized agricultural flail, though most of the handle is gone.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2010 7:28:02 GMT
yes because we can trust wikipedia to tell us the truth I don't believe the flail is a militarised agricultural tool nor half a hundred other weapons that they claim were agri tools.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2010 7:29:23 GMT
Actually really easy to make with a trip to the hardware store. Get a really long thick dowel 30-35mm, make sure its the heaviest, densest hardwood you can get, it will be a semprini to work with but will do you well and not break. Mark off how long you want your handle, then a section for your head. Search the metal fittings section for a fitting just nothing that looks to modern. Take a lathe and turn the round shaft into an octagonel shaft, two reasons, 1) Better grip with multiple sided shafts, your finger tips and knuckles grip and rest in all those angles. 2) The nails or studs are gonna go down the flat sides. For nails pre-drill the holes, put a drop of superglue in the holes then gently hammer the nails in actually getting a little in the wood more then you drilled the holes, then when they are all in take a file to each head and file a point (this would be historically accurate). Wipe them all with vinegar and salt solution and leave out overnight to age them, next day clean off all the red rust and when they are thoroughly clean oil them to seal and protect it should look the business. Same if you have steel langets going down the head as well as nails. Same goes for using studs if you want one that looks like it was an agricultural tool as well as peasent weapon and if your gonna do light force, trained re-enactment with it. I find sealing the wood with a dark linseed oil is better then varnish, just a rub down with a slightly oily cloth and its good, leave to soak and dry for a few days. Leather wrap down the bottom of the handle for your off hand grip, sometimes before oil sealing the handle I put nick and scratches in the handle with a butter knife to give it a worn appearence. Oh and there are pieces of german fight manuals describing agricultural flail combat, its a bit like a multi section staff for asian martial arts as oppossed to staff, just nice and euro I might make one myself next weekend if I'm bored
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2010 7:38:49 GMT
The pic looks like it was a straight military flail, probably one handed to use in conjunction with a shield. If would of absolutely ruined your day if you got struck by one, also it would of had longer reach then a convential mace. These I think were more popular then a chain flail, the chain flail could be used to wrap around an enemies limb or weapon but of course ran the risk of turning on the weilder. This was likely less risky and more wieldable but lacked alterior applications, then again in battle your looking foremost to hurt your enemy not pull off some disarm or have your weapon in a compramised state.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2010 7:58:19 GMT
Nope the pic is a full sized flail it just broken off. The flail is a ridiculously unconventional weapon bordering on lunacy but it works. I'd still much rather a reinforced billy club or english quarter staff personally.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2010 8:24:44 GMT
www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_id=498&g_id=1&c_id=58Manning Imperial in NSW AUS will make one for 550.00 ....... which even though they use traditional materials/techniques I think thats a big ask for something you could nearly do for under 50 bucks and one or two afternoons. But hey ........ re-enforced billy club and quarterstaff are the best weapons of choice, I would still go the flail. Personal preference, then keep lashing at their shins and knee caps =) ........... hhhheehehehehehhehehehehehhmwwmwmahahahhahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!! ............. ahem ........... yeah I think it was a preference thing, considering as a agri tool taken on poor soldiers campaign it was likely with a hatchett from the farm as well. So why use that instead of a two handed wood axe ......... I also reckon myself it was around and used before its seen in 15th C wood prints, I mean unless someone can tell me if they threshed grain different pre 15th C ........ how early was the flail recorded anyway (I dont know) ? was it even in majowski (spelling) bible prints
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2010 8:53:40 GMT
For $550 australian considering how good manning is at making their weapons and the traditional methods and techniques that isn't utterly horrible in my opinion. Shins, kneecaps and toes (a well made quarterstaff would even crush steel caps)
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2010 11:25:50 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2010 11:35:13 GMT
BTW the pricing on those two sites, is $54-$59 a much better price than $550, and you can use the $500 you save to get some studs put on ther if you really desire.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2010 16:40:16 GMT
When I was an SCA fighter we experimented with a ball and chain once. I was on the receiving end. Let me tell you they are hard to block, very effective weapon.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2010 17:02:23 GMT
You can get a two section staff, which it what these weapons are basicly but without the studding. snip The two section staff doesn't compare to a well built flail especially the one from manning, seems expensive but would be worth it. The ball and chain is extremely lethal, especially when you get the distancing correct and wrap the enemy weapon with enough chain left to swing around the enemy weapon and still strike them with force, it can be done. I saw a flail completely built from chainlinks like they make maille out of.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2010 23:14:33 GMT
Thanks for the feedback and links ;D manningimperial.com has some very interesting wares, I haven't heard of this vendor yet...though a bit on the pricey side compared to most Starting to lean towards the idea of just building your own though.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on May 4, 2010 0:24:57 GMT
Back in the day, me and Pops made a morning star. Dad was an attorney, until he took off his suit and tie and put on cut off Levi's and deck shoes. He had a belt for his Levi's made out of 550 cord. That was my Pops! Damn I miss him.
Slightly OT since it was a morning star and not a flail, but forgive me. Pops and I welded up the ball from 3" nails, it was about 5" diameter, galvanized chain linkage, about six inches. The haft was 1" pipe, 18" ling. When I was a kid, I could have broken the world with that thing.
(Sigh.)
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2010 2:25:40 GMT
If you make your own then you could also play with it if you want, I'd be hesitant to do anything but display a $550 flail.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2010 4:37:26 GMT
The ball and chain is extremely lethal, especially when you get the distancing correct and wrap the man with enough chain... truth. you can't let 'em get close or it's over, man.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2010 6:23:44 GMT
The chain with single or multi ball version would be stronger then the agricultural flail, good thing about the multi ball version is if one chain snaps you still got 3, 2 or 1 balls still in operation which is why that one got popular.
You would just need to ensure you got strong chains of a good wrought iron or industrial steel (just antique them) ...... and good strong balls ........
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2010 12:40:59 GMT
Fighting with the particular peasent flail
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2010 15:07:58 GMT
Brissybeater, thanks for the link to the vid. Again, I find it interesting how closely European techniques and Asian techniques (in this case staff and spear) resemble each other. Proof again that the human body is the same the world over.
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