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Post by rammstein on May 9, 2007 1:59:54 GMT
We have a thread on SCA melees and twoh anded sword combat, but we seem to be missing one on one of the SCA's most immportant weapons: The spear. I am a sword/shield fighter (in the barest form of the word - I use boffers and am too young to join the SCA as of now) but I'd like to know both fighting tactics while using the spear as well as ways to get around a user of these polearms. Thanks in advance, and lets hope this thread turns out to be just as interesting as the other SCA threads
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2007 4:06:51 GMT
Great idea Rammstein, I do not not have a lot of experiance fighting with the spear, I have a lot of experiance fighting against the spear. Kind of late now, I just got back from a kick$emprini practice. I'll post tomorrow. Do you want to limit this to just spear or include other polearms too?
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2007 6:27:50 GMT
The spear or staff is classed as being the most versatile and deadly weapons we have. I don't have any experience except what i have been messing around with for years, just playing and getting to know my weapon of choice and it is quite extraordinary what you can do with a staff. I imagine that it would be one of the hardest weapons to fight against.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2007 11:45:13 GMT
As far as melees go the idea is simple, The Ancient Greeks perfected the model with the Phalanx formation, basically overlapping shields with spears sticking out between. The front row provides maximum reach, the second and third row provide close defense for the first line. The Macedonians further improved upon this basic design with 18 foot lances creating a giant porcupine formation. . The drawback with this is that it is hard to maneuver with longspears. Spears are best when moving in one direction, forward. The Romans used there greater maneuverability with the short swords to outmaneuver the Greeks at the Macedonian Battles. All this holds true in SCA melee battle. It becomes more and more true to history as the SCA battles get bigger and bigger. The key to fighting speararmies is to outflank them. If you can get to their side the won't be able to turn their spears around. In a tight bridge combat things get really interesting as you can't outflank. It turns into a brawl.
Singles combat between two spearmen resemble longsword fighting with longer swords. Less cutting unless they are using a polearm with an edge. Then it looks even more like longsword fighting. Same ideas of winding to gain leverage when thrusting apply. That means you want to get your forte against his tip so you can control his point. Buttspike strikes resemble pommol strikes. In stikes you want to keep your staff between you and the other person's staff for defence.
Spear vs. shieldman is an awesome match up. The spear wants to keep the shield at a distance and kill him there out of the shieldmans range. The shield wants to close in and get his shield on the staff of the pole. At close range the spear will try a buttspike, but even that can be negated by keeping the shield on the staff. The shieldmans still has his swordarm ready to hit. It is best to strike in the same planeline as the spear. If the spear is horizontal, you attack horizontal, if the spear is vertical, you attack vertical. This makes it harder for the spear to block. The spears best bet is to try to check back the shield and create some space for him to fight in. It there is an edge on the polearm, he will have the added advantage of strikes with the edge. If there is no edge, well, getting hit with the staff won't feel good either.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2007 12:02:42 GMT
i imagine that if two warriors are of the same skill one using a spear and one a sword and shield the spearman would win about 7 out of 10.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2007 12:25:16 GMT
My personal experience and fighting as a shieldman is that against better fighter then myself who will beat me 8 out of 10 times fighting as a shieldman, when he switches to spear or polearm the odds turn to my favor. I can now beat that person 50% of the time or better.
The main factor here is that as a shieldman against a polearm, I can use less skill once I close in. All I have to do is close the distance without getting hit. As I close in the amount of skill the spear needs to beat me increase. When I am at a distance he needs no skill, except for a thrust. At a distance he can hit me, I can't hit him. If I get close, and get my shield on his staff, he needs a lot a skill to fight me from there. Not only does he need to free himself from my shield, but he must get around it to hit me. His only defense is that thin staff, and sword-thrusts work exceptionally well against that. At that range 50% of my strikes should be a thrust against a spear. Against another shield only 5% to 10% of my strikes are thrusts.
I should also add that in this sort of contest strength can make a big difference for either side as there is a lot of pushing around. This is because both fighters are trying to position themselves or position the other fighter. By contrast, two shieldmen fighting each other or two spearmen fighting each other can fight with from the same range with relative equality.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2007 16:38:15 GMT
Too many people use their spear in a linear manner, always trying to keep the point in the front.
The medieval masters demonstrate a movement similar to paddling a kayak (that's not the analogy they use, of course), affording the ability to sweep aside the opponent's weapon and set up for a kill. Some quarterstaff techniques are similar.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2007 18:46:36 GMT
All the guys I fight use their spear as they would a polearm in that they strike with the edge, butt and point. The only difference is that if it is a true spear and has no edge its not a kill if you hit with the edge, but it can still be effective in foiling and otherwise breaking up an attack.
The spear or polearms provides enough leverage so that if they make a strike using the their whole body, even if it is blocked with the shield, it can knock the person off balance. This will create more opportunities and it can also be demoralizing and intimidating. I think that this is the part that is hardest for beginner shieldmen to deal with.
Most guys prefer to use a Glaive. This is basically a short sword on a stick. It has a similar balance and weight to the spear but with the added advantage of a good edge.
I also fought one guy that had a short spear and shield , almost sword length. He pretty much used it as a sword. He was an African style warrior. He had a large spear head so he could make cuts.
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Post by rammstein on May 9, 2007 19:25:38 GMT
Kortoso, you bring up a good point, and I do this when I fight quarterstaff. the quarterstaffs are about 7 feet long and have a fair amount of heft to them (but are padded because we generally use boffers for more creative combat like this). I often find my enemy concetrating only on me and not looking at his neighbor to see if he is struck down. So often, I will look straight at him, fake to his head and with that same momentum, hit his unwary friend. That's one guy down while barely breaking a sweat.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2007 19:57:06 GMT
Here is a photo from my last tournament. In the photo I have just deflected a thrust, which was out of range of my body, and now am about to charge up the pole. From that position the spearman is fully extended and can not use the buttspike without first adjusting his grip nor does he have hand leverage to strike me with the edge. He has totally committed himself to a thrust.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2007 15:39:56 GMT
I was reminded yesterday of the inherent risks in SCA fighting. I got hit with the one in a million shot that came in at such an angle that it got between the wing on my knee armor and my legarmor. It hit my knee on the side where the tendon connects. My opponent tried to pull it as he say it was off-target but it still had enough momentum. Hurt yesterday and hurts today but I will be fine in a few days. It was an illegal shot made by accident and accidents happen.
I had always thought that he ban on knee hits was unnecessary but today I have a different opinion. Funny thing is that I don't even have a bruise in the area. Its just that knees are very sensitive.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2007 16:23:40 GMT
The secret to using a quarterstaff properly is to keep it moving, i disagree that using the body of the staff can't be fatal. In the right hands a quarterstaff is one of the deadliest weapons one can actually use, you can stab with either end, you can use brutal strikes with the body of the staff, you can use areas of the staff to effect different strikes. Even better you can use staffs for joint locks and arms locks, for leg sweeps. It is fantastic for foiling the legs of your opponent and they are light and fast enough to change blows midstroke. As you can tell, i love my quarterstaff or jo staff depending on what martial arts you are doing. Such an awesome weapon, i'd like to find somewhere that will teach me more than i already know from my own messing around.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2007 23:20:35 GMT
I experimented with a glaive for the first time last week. I was primarily interested in trying out new gauntlets I just bought. I had fought against polearms before but never with one.
I fought against another polearm. My opponent was weaker but more experienced. The approach I took in fighting is that I basically used it as a longer longsword. I found that the longsword fighting techniques worked well with some exceptions such as the use of a crossguard to block and trap. I got a few good shots in and took a few as well. I found myself closing in and wrestling at close range a lot maneuvering for a shot with the buttspike. I did not fight too long as I discovered the gauntlets needed further adjusting, I will talk about the gauntlets themselves in another post in the armor section. I'll need a few days to get a review together with some pictures.
One of the interesting things I found out was that a technique called "Kayaking" is illegal. Kayaking is with you have a blade on both ends of your staff and strike with one side and then the other in rapid succession. The polearm provides great leverage and when you swing with that much of a windup you can knock a man out even through his helmet. One of the old fighters from the 70's described it as too brutally effective. This is very interesting to me because when fighting against polearms as a shieldman, I have found that polearms are often easy to bind up with the shield and then hit with the sword. I know realize that their is another extremely lethal option available to the polearm. It is still impossible to execute if the shieldman gets his shield on the polearm and plays stickyfingers, but if the polearm gets some space to work in, he has the potential to make a debilitating blow to an opponent in full plate armor.
I will be fighting this form more in the coming weeks and I should have a lot more insight to contribute.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2007 23:22:22 GMT
I was talking to the guys at our SCA group and one of the better fighters uses a spear in his laft hand as defense, and a sword in his right. He says the spear is great because it gives head to toe coverage with just a small step to either side, and becomes a weapon when you need it. He says it can get in the way if the butt end hapens to stick in the ground, but he apparently is one of the more victorious fighters. I have never seen him fight for myself, so I have to go on his word, and the word of others. I suspect that since he is the biggest guy there, he may have an edge in that regard. If I was to join, I would probably be the next in size, but of course way behind in experience. Just some food for thought.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2007 5:15:10 GMT
Yes, I have seen that form used very effectively too. Most guys use a Great Sword because it is a little shorter and the cross-guard provides additional defense from vertical strikes and better deflects thrusts up. The tip which is pointed down is used as the butt-spike. The form is referred to as "Christian" because the sword resembles a large cross as it is held upside down by what would be the recasso.
I have experimented with it myself on two occasions. I created a thread in the training subject area called "fighting Christian" if you want to take a look at it. Another similar style is with a large axe held just under the head called "Hussguard". The axehead provides a punching option at close range. One inherent weakness to these forms is that striking at the bottom of the weapon near the butt-spike causes the weapon to swing back and forth. You can then time your attacks from there. All other tactics against two-weapon men apply, such as trying to swipe both his weapons with the shield. Two-weapon men are very vulnerable to thrusts. Their advantage is clearly that they can attack from two directions simultaneously. This works best with misdirection and distraction. A very successful tactic is to bind a shieldman's sword with one weapon and attack around the shield with the other. From what I have seen, they are nearly defenseless against polearms. At long range thrusts are a death-nail. If they manage to close in they don't have the leverage of a shield strapped on the forearm to really pin down the polearm and be able to strike freely with the other weapon. So in conclusion, the form is poor against polearms. It gives some advantage over a shield if you can use the two-weapons with great skill and not bind yourself. I emphasize great skill. Two-weapons forms are the hardest to master. Both hands need to just as good in offense and defense.
Using a spear pointed down, is particularly vulnerable to vertical attacks since it lacks the cross-guard of a great sword. With one hand, you can only hold the spear in a vertical plan and move it side to side. You don't have the leverage to turn it horizontal. The longer staff provides leverage against you should your opponent start hitting the end to make it rock. You can attack with the butt-spike at a longer range but that will be lost if you are closed in on. I'm not knocking it, I am only pointing out strengths and weaknesses. It is definitely a respectable form.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2007 16:30:40 GMT
I have also seen the sword in one hand and spear in the other fighting style. I found that (using sword and shield) if you stay out of range make him use the spear and then deflect and rush in cheating to the side he is holding the spear.
Unless someone using this style is very good I think the shieldman has the advantage one on one.
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Post by rammstein on Jun 3, 2007 22:02:52 GMT
And I still think your fingers make nice juicy targets...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2007 1:05:31 GMT
I got to do some more polearm fighting this week. In reflection, I seem to be falling back to my sword and shield tactics of charging in and getting upclose against other polearms. This is not working well because it is limmiting my options. At close range the best I can do is use the butspike. Strikeing with the blade is messy at that range. I have to dedicate myself to keeping distance and using my German Longsword skills. I am finding the transition from livesteel somewhat difficult because now everything is happening at a much faster and more powerful rate. I have been assured by other fighters that I will be able to bridge the gap quickly because the underlying knowledge is there.
I find this fastenating because the issue has come up before about how will livesteel and WMA skills transfer into SCA fighting. Time will tell.
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Post by rammstein on Jun 10, 2007 1:09:19 GMT
You know, if I were an average spearman alone and frightened in battle after getting seperated from my unit and found myself up close and personal with a french swordsman, I think I'd throw downmy weapon and hope to god I can run faster. There are just too many odds stacked against the polearm guy for a fair fight. However in a unit...I'd have a fun fun time
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