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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2006 23:55:57 GMT
Have been told there are three qualities is steel that are desired. Sharpness of edge, flexibility and rust resistance. However only two could be Incorporated into the sword. Master Japanese sword makers chose keenness of edge and flexibility. This is why Katanas and the like can rust very quickly and should be respected by not talking while the sword is un-sheathed due to the moisture from a persons breath. Don't know if this is correct, or true but it sounds good?
My question is, compared to modern steel are the ancient swords of comparable or better quality. It would seem logical that the older steel though, hammer forged and folded would not be the best quality compared to modern steel. How's the 9260 steel compare and other steels which modern katanas are made of compare to older blades?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2006 0:23:16 GMT
In any sword, the two qualities desired are Toughness and Hardness. Rust/Corrosion resistance is nice, but steel with that quality can only really be made by adding chromium, which in large amounts weakens the grain structure and causes it to be brittle, this is why 'stainless steel' is not a common sword steel, at least among good quality swords. Toughness and Hardness, as it pertains to steel, are inversely proportional to each other. More hard, and you can have a better edge, but the sword gets brittle. More soft, and the sword becomes tougher. European blades found a nice medium and were through hardened(most of the time), as they didn't need razor sharp edges. Katanas had to be able to cut through thick leather armor, and so keener edges were required, so they needed sharper swords. This required that the edge be harder, which meant brittle. Japanese smiths helped correct this problem by 'differentially hardening' their blades. The edge was hard, and consequently sharp. The spine was softer, and so tougher. As for rusting, there's moisture in the air anyway, and keeping blades clean and dry all the time is important. Not talking while a blade was unsheathed is a myth. If they were that anal about it they wouldn't take their swords into battle, as blood and grime from battles are far more dangerous to a blade than air moisture. In the end, any sword made from steel without a lot of chromium will rust quickly and readily. there's no way to prevent that, apart from using stainless steel, or laminating a non-rusting metal on top of the vulnerable carbon steel. A lot of makers of knives for example, will bake a black epoxy powder on their blades to prevent rusting(a la www.coldsteel.com). As to modern swords vs. ancient swords...it depends largely on the swords themselves. Modern steels are much cleaner and purer, and so much more consistent(usually). They can also be made to be stronger than traditional steels with alloys like 9260, L6, 5160, or S7.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2006 3:39:28 GMT
Adam. Yours was an excellent post. Thanks for taking the time and the wonderful insight. I have done much Kendo and some Iado and my mentors have all been in agreement concerning the etiquette when a sword is being unsheathed and shown. I agree with you concerning the rusting of any steel blade. However the practice of not speaking when a blade is being unsheathed might be "anal" to us westerners but it is of utmost respect and proper etiquette when inspecting your sword or another's sword. Again, I sincerely appreciate your insight, thank you for the info.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2006 3:48:40 GMT
<snip>This is why Katanas and the like can rust very quickly and should be respected by not talking while the sword is un-sheathed due to the moisture from a persons breath.<snip> My first comment is, what is the blade doing that close to your mouth to begin with? I see this a lot, I just got home from Bujinkan and someone said this, and I've seen it posted on swordforum.com several times. No offense, but why the heck is the blade this close to your mouth people? Like Adam said, the three qualities you posted are nice, but steel is steel. This is the metal we have to work with. We can add different components to it to augment it, silicon for flexibilty (i.e. Mr. Chen's 9260 steel), chromium for rust (i.e. Stainless Steel), carbon to maintain the edge (i.e. high carbon steel) but in large amounts, which is often needed to achieve the desired results, you weaken the steel. (as seen with Stainless Steel - too much silicon makes the blade a wet noodle - and too much carbon makes the blade both brittle and rusts it almost instantly) The only reason steel was ever folded was to distribute the impurities evenly. There is no point in folding modern steel. So right there we have removed one step from our sword-making process without losing quality of the end result. Lost my train of thought... I'll edit this when I remember... L.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2006 4:05:31 GMT
when studying a nihonto you would hold the blade quite close to your face to examine the various properties of the steel, especially if like me your eyes arent the best. That is the time when you dont breath on the sword. Remember the rarity and cost of some of these peices,its cotton gloves and hold your breath, or you wont be invited back to look again. When the swords were new I doubt they would have received that kind of treatment(except for very special peices).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2006 4:10:05 GMT
when studying a nihonto you would hold the blade quite close to your face to examine the various properties of the steel, especially if like me your eyes arent the best. That is the time when you dont breath on the sword. Remember the rarity and cost of some of these peices,its cotton gloves and hold your breath, or you wont be invited back to look again. When the swords were new I doubt they would have received that kind of treatment(except for very special peices). Well I wouldn't know about the case with Nihonto, but I am considered legally blind (I have to wear strong glasses) and I stille examine swords a considerable distance from my mouth. I suppose if you wanted to really examine the activities along the boarder of the hamon and such then you'd hold it that close, but that's still a long shot. (in my mind) L.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2006 4:21:40 GMT
well, I'm certainly not that fussy about it with my own swords,(tho in this humid atmosphere I find myself oiling them more often) but its always nice to know whats expected if you find yourself in a situation where someone offers you a expensive peice to examine.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2006 4:39:39 GMT
<snip>but its always nice to know whats expected if you find yourself in a situation where someone offers you a expensive peice to examine. You mean take it and run? Oh! Oh my bad. Don't breathe on it... Gotcha. L.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2006 5:18:47 GMT
HAHAHAHAA I have images of L Draegon being chased down the street by a bunch of angry old japanese guys or at least a bunch of yakusa henchmen
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2006 5:37:03 GMT
L. Draegon is correct. Moisture from the nose and mouth even at several feet distance can effect a fine steel blade. I have had the opportunity in the past to examine some prickles katanas and other blades and how you accept it from the owner, handle it, inspect it demonstrates to the owner you are educated in proper etiquette and respect the owner and the blade. Make fun of it if you wish, this is why Americans are regarded as inferiors by some, because we lack respect for other cultures and traditions. Please ...no disrespect intended to the writers of this post but we need to look beyond what and who we are and take the time to understand our sport and where it came from. By doing this we not only will grow more aware of the history of the swords we use but also enhance our understanding of others.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2006 15:25:34 GMT
Hi onecut my answer to your question all though I have absalutly no authority or realy very much knowladge of it. Is that unless you where Musashi Miyamoto or Ogami Itto you probably didnt need to have the strongest katana in the world. I beleive the katana wasnt the most favord weapon on the japanese battlefeild but rather the spear or naganata was the sword was often used only as a secondary weapon so allthough they where still strong and sharp as hell they probably didnt get used as often as you would use a moden katana for tameshigiri most of the time samurai would only use bokens for practice and also in the case of a dual blade on blade contact was avoided as much as possable and cutting through a human probably isnt that difficult as for the old versus the new as some1 else said in another thread unless theres some1 out there willing to do a test to distruction on an 800 year old $20000-$90000 tamahagane nihonto against a $300 9260 spring steel beater we will probably never know what is the best steel for a katana
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