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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2010 23:54:03 GMT
A few weeks back I told my son,who is about to turn eighteen and graduate high school,that as an early part of his gift he could pick out a new katana up to $250.Well as you can imagine he spent much time on the internet looking at his choices.And then I would look a little more into his choices.We both had pretty much decided Hanwei Raptor Shobu.He already had his PK+ and really liked it.Then he saw the WSS unokubi and just fell in love with it.His mind changed in the blink of an eye,this was his new sword.I checked around and talked to people who had one and read what some people had to say about theirs.It was all good stuff.Some people said how it was fast becoming their favorite sword.Being associated with Kensei,how could it not be a great sword,right?I mean I hear so much about excellent Kensei quality and so on.My son was not only extremely happy about having 1 of only 50 made but about having a sword provided by Kensei.I had to get it for him.So payment was made and my son had his new dream sword on the way.Couple of weeks go by.My son lives with his mom an hour and a half away.So we set a weekend for him to come stay,I had the delivey date for his sword and it would be waiting for him.Bought a case of mats and a half case of pool noodles.The day before my son was to arrive the sword arrived.A big dent in the corner of the box,the box inside holding the sword was open.Seems somewhere along customs maybe they did not retape it shut,bent blade among other damage.I emailed Marc and he had another shipped out immediately.The sword arrived 2 weeks later in great shape.So I bought a case of beach mats this time and drove to see my son for the day.I had soaked the mats the night before and had them in a 5' cooler in the bed of my truck for the ride.Now I didnt show him his new sword right away,I told him it had not arrived yet.So he cuts a couple of double mats with his PK+ and my Musashi 1060 and 1045 and my Raptors and Munetoshi.Then I pull the WSS unokubi from the truck and the smile on his face when he saw it you couldnt scrub off with ajax and a brillo pad.The first cut on a double beach mat and the blade bends like nothing.Let me tell ya, as someone who loves swords I was shocked.As a fan of Kensei I was in disbelief. As a father I was beyond pi$$ed off.My son wouldnt even look at the sword,he felt it bend in his hands.He just walked over to the porch ,set it down,and stared at the ground.When I got home that night,I had calmed down enough to be civil,and sent Marc an email.Within an hour Marc was emailing me back asking me what he could do to make not only me but my son happy as well.I told him I would call my son the next day to see what he wanted to do and let him know.The next morning I recieved an email saying Kensei was sending me a brand new sword to make things right and replace the defective one and that they were aware of the problems Id had and it would be taken care of.Now I understand things can go wrong with heat treats,tempering and such and lemons do get thru sometimes.So I thought ok no problem they are going to make it right and my son wanted to give it another try,still being excited about having a limited edition katana made by Kensei.Well after waiting another 2 weeks a sword shaped box arrives by mail carrier.A single box all the way from California,with a nice size hole with some black cloth and a tsuba sticking out,hmmm. This is the sword my son had his heart set on and the sword that I ordered.Look and read please www.wiwingtiswordsupply.com/wiwingtikatanaeconomical.htmlThis is the sword Kensei sent to replace it. s960.photobucket.com/albums/ae81/racin8873/Now I know the differences are subtle ,but should I be happy with this?Should my son have to settle?Shinogi zukuri,and crappy one at that.10'' tsuka instead of 13''.Slightly bent blade.Wipe it down and it has more waves in it than my $59 Musashi.The pic with 2 swords, the one on top is a $35 parts sword from Ronin katana that is made better and looks better.Now people I realize I did not buy a $650 Dragonfly or Kiyomaro.But is that where the Kensei quality and CS i have heard and read about begins?Is this all my satisfaction is worth?They are given and take the oppurtunity to make things right and this is it?Apparently I did not spend enough money to be important.Or is it that because its not a Kensei signature sword but one provided to Marc by Kensei,you get crap from them or you just dont matter.I cant see it any other way,my son got a piece of crap,while others got swords they love.Given the chance to make it right,he gets something even worse that isnt even what I ordered and paid for.Marc all the while was willing to do whatever to make us happy.After seeing this thing they sent me I emailed Marc at wiwingti again and told him what was going on.The reply I got back from Marc within 30 minutes was this.He is sending my son a Raptor Shobu at no charge,free shipping, and told him to keep these two pieces of feces as wallhangers. I would really like to hear some feedback on this one people.I dont know what to think.I feel insulted,I feel as if my sons feelings and expectations mean nothing,and that is what really ticks me off.I wanted him to have a nice unique piece that he would be proud of but not scared to use yaknow.And this is it.Are my feelings about this justified do I have good reason to be upset?I think so. Marc cares about his customers satisfaction, that is evident.And Marc cares about my sons feelings and expectations.Marc stands behind his services,no matter how much or how little you pay. Before this I had put serious thought into getting the Kiyomaro katana,had even planned out how to scrimp and save the cash to do it.After this experience I may be done with Kensei. Maybe ill just scrimp and save for a Tori. Thanks Marc.Once again customer service that is beyond compare. I really want to hear feedback from the forum on this guys.Im floored here.Kensei high quality,where? Mods if this is the wrong section for this post feel free to put it where it should be.
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Post by wiwingti on Apr 21, 2010 0:25:11 GMT
completely right to be sad and questioning yourself about that man lol. Kensei have a great quality blades usually and i was disapointed as much , maybe more than you man,. hope that raptor will satisfy your demand. and sorry for all that mess Marc
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2010 0:28:06 GMT
man this is beyond the realm of F'd up (sorry)-
First off, on an emotional level, I'd feel defeated and bitter. I mean grudge-holding, name slandering kinda bitter. I don't have a son, but I pray I'm blessed with one someday. To have a scenario planned where, approaching the rite of passage that is graduation and such, and you make all the little sacrifices to have your cutting session and gift of a sword. Those are defining moments in a young man's life. The little moments that are etched in stone by love and effort and the giving of a gift. Awesome dude. Just awesome. And it was soured by all this nonsense. I would be really bitter. My heart goes out to you my brother.
Marc at Wiwingti just gained a fan and a customer in the future. We are what we DO people. Not what we SAY or THINK. Guy really went to bat and tried his best according to your post. Great endorsement for a man and his company.
Kensei... this is a joke. I don't really know anything about them. Don't want to either. Product seems nice I guess. Maybe people like them, but there's too many people here on the FORUM that provide testimony of great CS and great product from other companies. Why would I ever risk having a similar experience? I'm not a high-end buyer either...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2010 0:45:15 GMT
Actually, I'm pretty sure the WSS Unokubi isn't made by Kensei, but rather contracted out by Kensei to one of it's sister forges. Marc was pretty specific about that. It's likely that this is where the crappy replacement came from too. It's really unfortunate what happened and it always seems that the lemons get into the hands of someone who had special plans for them. That just adds to the disappointment. I've already done quite a bit of cutting with my WSS Unokubi and I've had no problems at all. I really like it. I think it's a great sword but even top line swords have the odd 'bad apple'. The good side of this story is that you were dealing through Marc and WSS, which means that in one way or another, you'll get satisfaction. Most vendors wouldn't go to the lengths Marc does in customer service. The swords Kensei produces from it's own forges under the Kensei Brand name are fantastic and very high-quality. I own two swords they produced and they are both the nicest katanas I own.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2010 0:46:37 GMT
This was just posted in response to this issue at WSS forums from Kensei. "Marc just brought this to my attention, and I'm very sorry to hear about this "lemon". As someone mentioned, these are not produced through our main forge but outsourced to another factory. I regret we did not catch them in QC although we tested one of each type on tatami omote before releasing them. If anyone here has any of these that did not hold up to tameshigiri practice, please contact Kensei at info@sword-saint.com for a free replacement or credit towards another model. -Kensei Swords www.sword-saint.com "
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2010 1:06:33 GMT
Aww, man. That sucks, John. I agree that these are not Kensei products, but are swords brought in from another manufacturer in order to meet the order specifications of sugata and price. When it goes through Kensei, whether their own product or not, I imagine at least one of each line is tested by Loren or a friend/employee so we would at least know that it cuts. Marc and Loren, though, are great guys. I think this all comes down to "meeting the budget"; still being able to pull in some sort of a profit while staying within the realm of fiscal reality. Marc doesn't really need it, since he's a verified awesome guy , but I'll definitely vouch for Loren.
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Post by shadowhowler on Apr 21, 2010 1:42:35 GMT
A +1 for Marc... he always goes above and beyond what most would do to take care of his customers. Also, as others have said, this is not indicative of Loren/Kensei/Oni Forge product... sometimes Loren 'outsources' stuff for varrious reasons... but the swords sold under the Oni Forge/Kensei name are, to my mind and experince, the best production swords under 500 bucks I have ever handled and used. S*it happens... just sad it happened to you in this way... at least you had the good sense to have bought from Marc, because he did everything he could to make it better, as he always does.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2010 2:03:18 GMT
I have left the above message and sent Kensei an email to the link he posted above and will keep the forum informed as to what happens from here.I understand contracting out jobs its what I do.But when I do a job that I got because my bid was the lowest,I am still held to the same quality standards as the high bidder and I hold myself to those standards
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2010 3:14:37 GMT
I sure hope this gets resolved and in a positive experience kind of way. I also want to go on record as saying that if others will quickly jump to the defense of Kensei and its respected people , I need to acknowledge it as a sign that they meet the higher standards we all expect. People always back a proven commodity. (shadowhowler and morpheus own the product/s- saying its the best sword one owns is not small praise!) When I first started browsing this forum, I read another (similar) post and the customer was not awarded much satisfaction of any kind. For some reason that has stuck with me. Wiser men than myself have a broader view of this problem. Sorry
Again, I hope this gets resolved for you John. Best of luck.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2010 5:33:08 GMT
I had a similar problem but with cas hanwei.. First sword broke in half with a light target (detergent bottle). 2 different raptors shobu with different problems each.. I dont see fair enough even if you are angry, read messages about people telling you oh is a lemon.. it didnt happen to them, they have enough money good for them i dont, i even lost money sending the first raptor, money that i dont even have to spend for the very beginning. The funny thing is that you read this kind of messages from people that have like 20-30 katanas. I understand one lemon but 2 in a row unforgettable, 3 if i count the first one... from the same company i mean COME ON!!!! <== yes i still pissed @ hanwei.. They are selling you a product you expect to come right out of the box to work right, if it dont work send me another one and make sure it dont have any flaws, im complaining already about the first one why dont check carefully the replacement? But they dont do that, they make the order, box the replacement dont even check the thing and when they receive theirs then they send you the other one which it can be good or even worst like in my case and happens to me.. Anyway like you know we have to deal with the whole cracked tsuka thing for the beginning .... My 2 cents on this kind of situation..
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Post by wiwingti on Apr 21, 2010 6:32:01 GMT
just to let everyone know that,
1- kensei ordered those for me but they were supposed to be shobu and arrived not as ordered but, Loren tried one and tought they were good enough.
2-it is the third part(forge) that didn't do it's homework because we asked him for a product and specs and he sent us something else.
3- some members bought it and were satisdfied with it so it make us think that two kind of different steel could have been used for some and others.
4- as usuall i always try to satisfy as much possible my customers but sometimes, it is out of our hands.
but
5- the WSS ko-katana comming is from the good forge and not that thiord part forge so, don't worry, they will be hell of a deal and very great swords promess from Marc at Wiwingti sword supply.
Marc
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Post by shadowhowler on Apr 21, 2010 6:37:14 GMT
I never worry at all when I buy something from you, Marc... because I know its allways possible to get a dud/lemon from any maker... but its NOT always possible to get a vendor you KNOW will stand behind you and take care of you no mater what. Thats why your my first choice.
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Post by wiwingti on Apr 21, 2010 7:06:16 GMT
thanks man,, with the week i had it is very cool to read that lol
Marc
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Apr 21, 2010 12:13:11 GMT
I have been dealing with Loren for YEARS.... and have NEVER.... NEVER ... had an issue he couldnt and didnt fix...
I just recieved a Kiyomaro, and 3 of the student series...
First , let me say that there is a trend now to preorder swords as a group to acquire the capital to make a run of swords... this isnt a practice I endorse ... buying products (mass prloduced) premade and sight unseen is a good way to get problems like we have seen here.
Secondly , let me say that the WSS unokubi was a special run... preordered just as I mentioned... THEREFORE, Loren couldnt replace it with an identical sword. But he did replace it.
Let me also say that ALL of the student series Kensei are in the preliminary phases... prototypes really....
Marc is a great guy.... Loren is a great guy... semprini happens... both did their best to make it right. It is now redressed... where's the issue?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2010 17:12:51 GMT
Guys I want to be sure its known that my post here was not an attack or slander on Kensei signature swords.I understand their line is high quality and very good,and I trust and hold in high regard the opinions of those saying this.I have no personal experience with Kensei line swords.I never thought this was a Kensei signature sword,I understood it was a WSS katana provided by Kensei,this is why I refered to it as being Kensei associated.As I said I uderstand subcontracting work,I have done many types of construction work over the years,most of which was subbed work.For those who do not understand.Craftsmen bid on the job,how much they will charge to do the work,the cheapest bid wins.Simple.But usually,at least in my experience and practice,quality does not suffer.You bid low because,you want the job to get your foot inthe door to more work,Or you have a larger crew that can double time the job or you have an inside source for material or something to that effect.You dont sacrifice quality.I was baffled that a sword coming through Kensei was like that and I wanted input from people with experience.What ticked me off was being sent a shinogi to replace an unokubi,this is when I got mad.Its not what my son wanted,and he doesnt like the Raptor unokubi.Im an easy going guy,and had this sword been for me I probably would have chalked it up to experience and been done with it,even though I know Marc would make it right.But this was for my kid,who had already been disappointed twice.Those of you who have children I hope can understand where Im coming from.Those of you who hope to have kids,I hope you dont have to go throught these things,but when you do ,you will understand.
This was not an attack on Kensei. It is also good to know the new WSS kokats are coming from a quality forge and will be held to the same quality standards as a true Kensei.Im back on board.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2010 17:17:11 GMT
Aceofhats---Thank you for your thoughts and understanding of my feelings and why I posted this.But please dont look at Kensei's signature line in a negative light,I trust and believe the people here who say there line is high quality.This was not meant as a slander.I even waited over a day to to write that so my feelings would not take over.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2010 17:30:13 GMT
I have been dealing with Loren for YEARS.... and have NEVER.... NEVER ... had an issue he couldnt and didnt fix... I just recieved a Kiyomaro, and 3 of the student series... First , let me say that there is a trend now to preorder swords as a group to acquire the capital to make a run of swords... this isnt a practice I endorse ... buying products (mass prloduced) premade and sight unseen is a good way to get problems like we have seen here. Secondly , let me say that the WSS unokubi was a special run... preordered just as I mentioned... THEREFORE, Loren couldnt replace it with an identical sword. But he did replace it. Let me also say that ALL of the student series Kensei are in the preliminary phases... prototypes really.... Marc is a great guy.... Loren is a great guy... semprini happens... both did their best to make it right. It is now redressed... where's the issue? The issue was receiving a very crappy shinogi instead of what was ordered an unokubi.Not an idiot here I understand limited means limited,and that that exact sword was not available as a replacement,however I was not given a choice as to the replacement sent or an option.I realize you are a huge fan of Kensei and with good cause,their line is great.But if you dont see the issue here,then you just dont.No offense meant Marc.Marc at wiwi did and has made this right not Kensei.Sending that sword as a replacement,well Ive said what I had to say about it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2010 13:18:24 GMT
In my opinion, Marc should not have had to send one of his swords to replace the crappy replacement. Kensei should have sent , in the first place, at least a Student Series Unokubi, which has the identical blade geometry of the WSS unokubi.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2010 17:11:49 GMT
Well the shobu was sent back,screw up in mailing.I just cant have any luck.Should be coming back next week.Fingers crossed.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2010 19:03:09 GMT
In my opinion, Marc should not have had to send one of his swords to replace the crappy replacement. Kensei should have sent , in the first place, at least a Student Series Unokubi, which has the identical blade geometry of the WSS unokubi. But the fact that he did is another kudo in Marc's amazing service record. +1 to Marc
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