Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2010 2:45:58 GMT
Well, first off, it's been a while. and second, I suppose you could call me non-traditionalist, but I think that if the sword is going to stay in the markets (well, more grow in popularty) we as a community need to modernize. Not to say I don't appreciate a nice traditional blade (who doesn't?) but I think I've got a good little plan for helping swords grow more in societal popularity and hopefully put them back where all swords belong in society. Our belts :^) 1: I think it would be wise to develope newer steels with both low levels of cromium without being detremental to the strains a sword has to be able to endure. 1060 and such are great materials, and this is probably the least necessary of my points, but a stainless steel blade made by, and for swords and swordsmen would be a great boon to our market. 2: I also believe that, while there are "tactical blades", A more designed blade for both modern war and wear should be devised. Most tac swords I've seen are more just longer tanto knives. While this is a good style, I feel it's almost the ONLY style available to modern sword enthusiests. I believe that a good double bladed saber would do well, or even a tri-bladed piercing type blade as was popular back in the late Ren or early modern era (dang Geneva Convention! lol). Also, just to clarify, I don't think full sized 30" bladed swords are the answer, in a modern warfare role, a sword is nearly useless compared to your rifle, it's applications, I believe, would be in cqb or last ditch circumstances. As such, blade size and weight must be kept within certain peramiters. 3: We also should modify our marketing strategies. One point that really needs work is for us to show why someone should pay hard-earned cash on a 300$ blade they might not use. (and one should remember that most folks fon't know the differences between a quality blade and wall hangers) We need to educate the regular everyday folks that there is a real danger relying on a ren-faire blade as opposed to a high quality 1060 blade or (enter favourite sword here). Then we should try to sell to folks who will actually use a blade often enough and in a situation that would warrant the desire for the price. You probably saw this coming but I believe that is the modern slodier. For one, they'd be able to use it for utilitarian tasks like hacking wooden stuctures or something like that, second in a cqb style role. And knowing our boys, they'll even surprizes US to how a sword can be used, I'm sure. 4: Last Point, Manufacturing of blades should not "move away" from traditional ways, but does, I think, need to move toward mass production. Not as in, stamped stainless, but more in a way similar to Cold Steel or Albion. Machining is quite common in American factories, and I think that using quality steels, with professional machinists, with good tempering jobs, and good quality control would lead to the kind of production that Americans (and I would say other folks from all over the world) expect from say, a quality knifemaking company. Every blade reacts the same, because it's the same metal, production, and rated to the same tolerances.
Now that I've bored you all to tears, what do you think? Or what do YOU think is the future of Swords? I hope this will be an amicable and enlightening commentary.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2010 2:52:39 GMT
Personally, I prefer machining, good temper, and pegs. I'm going away from traditional, and into fantasy. Many folks are into this now.
Tactical, check my sig.
|
|
|
Post by sicheah on Apr 2, 2010 3:01:16 GMT
Nice thoughts, here are my comments though I may not be entirely correct. 1) Not sure stainless steel is the way to go though. They make good knives and resist rust they may be too brittle for anything longer than 10 inch blade. To reduce blade maintenance I would apply silicone spray on blades, though not on higher end Japanese swords or antique that would need some re polishing. 3) I wish someone could explain why I'm spending so much on swords lol. $300 swords gets you decent entry swords from decent company (though well made entry swords are getting slightly cheaper over time) and swords that you dream about usually cost a lot more. 4) Mass productions must go hand in hand with quality control though. Agree there are many ways to make swords and in the US and Western Europe where capital equipment are relatively cheaper than labor compared to China and India, yeah they can potentially make quality swords. At least I know the Albion gladius are better than 95 percent of gladius made back in good old days.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2010 6:14:40 GMT
It feels like you're trying to solve problems that don't actually exist... Regarding #2 Sword design trends aren't something that can be purposely changed. It's a fad. Especially now, since swords are no longer being produced for martial purposes. You're no longer designing a sword to answer a battlefield problem; you're either copying history or attempting to appeal to a modern aesthetic. Thinking swords can be improved with the intent of battlefield use is pretty much a way of tricking yourself into justifying sword ownership, trying to believe their use isn't dead to history. Maybe a few Marines carry a short sword here and there, but nowadays it's generally more a hassle than it's worth. Even a large knife can be a PITA when you're suddenly diving for cover. I mean, have you even landed on your keys? Imagine that times 10. Modern combat has indeed seen more close-in fighting than previous years. Urban warfare and whatnot. For this reason, I've noticed that the chosen melee weapon tends to be tomahawks. Reasons being: 1) A great tomahawk is generally cheaper than an OK sword. 2) A 'hawk is much harder to ruin than a sword. A 'hawk isn't going to snap if it gets caught and wrenched badly. A haft can be replaced fairly easily. 3) A 'hawk has uses beyond the martial functions. A sword can't really be used to hack through a door to gain entry. Simply put, "tactical" swords aren't anymore combat oriented than those found in history. If anything, they're less so. They may be able to handle the job, but the job just isn't there to be had. Their primary sales market is people who like the way they look, and mall-ninjas. There have been plenty of "tactical"sword designs on the market. Angus Trim had quite a few. That line was a failure, and he no longer offers them. He had the knowledge and ability to make VERY functional swords and at reasonable prices. Alas, there really isn't the need for them that you seem to be expecting. Regarding #1 On the topic of stainless steels, I don't know what you're expecting. The time, energy, and processes that go into making a functional stainless sword adds cost. You're increasing the price of the sword by at least 25%, and that leaves you with what? A sword you have to oil less? For a user in particular, I personally have no qualms with oiling, or even letting it develop a patina. If someone plans on using a sword regularly, I doubt that its ability to stay shiny is high on their list. There are companies producing better and better steels. Busse's INFI steel is pretty damn good from the reviews their knives get. Alas, it's a proprietary steel. No one else can use it. All in all, there ain't that much room for improvement when it comes to steel. Regarding #3 Educating the public is what this forum does. Those who come here looking for answers will generally find them. It's not hard to find this place, either. People with sword questions and minimal Google-fu(the ability to use a search site) will probably find this place. On top of that, some people simply can't be educated. There's people who don't WANT the truth. They prefer to live in the fantasy presented to them in movies and television. They buy a $10 wallhanger at a flea market, and they're convinced they have a magical Katana forged by Masamune, himself. When told it's a piece of junk that can't be used, and that swords can't actually cut SUV's in half, they spit in your face. It's just how some people are. Regarding #4 Mass production, for the most part, is the PROBLEM with current sword manufacturing. Production on that scale simply doesn't have the capability of retaining the quality you expect. You'll never have mass-produced, top-quality anything. Albion is about as good as it gets, but you're still paying a LOT for the time, attention, and care that goes into each piece to make sure it's good enough to go to the customer. Mass production is what's putting people out of business. No one goes to a furniture maker anymore, not when they can get an okay chair for cheap at Walmart that was slapped together in China. The main problem with swords is that they're really such a niche market. There's very little ability for a swordsmith to gain enough popularity and money so as to get and maintain a factory. Foreign companies manage it, barely, by having low overhead costs and affordable products. The general public is FAR more likely to buy a cheap, ok sword from Windlass than they are from Angus Trim (which would be considered low-quantity but good quality production levels). Another thing is that what little general market trends exist are almost impossible to keep up with or predict. I bet every time there's a popular movie with a Katana in it (Kill Bill and The Last Samurai come to mind), the sales of Katana see a market spike. But I bet 90% of that spike is wallhangers. People just oooh and aaah over what they see, and run off to buy the first one they come across. Rambo caused bowie sales to skyrocket. Dirty Harry caused .357 magnum revolvers to fly off shelves. Swords just aren't popular enough to see the market that you think they should. I'm sure we'd all LIKE to see quality swords become a more normal thing, but it's not going to happen. *catches breath* And you thought YOU were long winded? This is what happens when you work all night doing nothing, but have internet access.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2010 22:58:26 GMT
I know what you mean Stekfretman, I was hoping for this to be less that a few paragraphs... that didn't happen. Well, I must admit I am a smidge too hopeful lol. I don't think that soldiers in the field will ever go for a sword first, and you brought up a good point about hawks, they are cheaper. I wasn't really thinking that we could make swords anywhere near a primanry weapon, I was thinking more along the lines of an "Extra applications utility tool". I brought up stainless just because generally I think a low maintainance tool would be more user friendly, maybe not to folks like you and me, but to some young pup who's never done maintainance before... well I had a leaning curve when I started this mess. (Actually had to re-finish my entire Gen2 Celtic Sword after it had built up a super-patina, it was actually a lot of fun) But Ya, I'm optimistic, maybe too much so. I do agree the the golden age of swords is over though, I'd still like to just urge that new and innovative designs continue to come out of the woodwork.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2010 23:10:28 GMT
Well for me, I would lots rather have my Oniyuri which I think is a great tac sword design when the bullets ran out than an empty rifle with a bayonet on it. There is just so much more you can do with a sword than a gun with a bayonet, and you can do it faster . I would definitely take a sword to battle, along with a large Bowie and maybe a small knife or two
|
|
|
Post by Kilted Cossack on Apr 3, 2010 2:26:29 GMT
steckfretman:
Ahem, I think you meant that Dirty Harry caused a run on the S&W .44 Magnums, not the .357s---although I'd rather have a five inch 27 than a five inch 29, but that's just me, anyway.
swordmonger7:
An M4 with a sticker on it is an ENTIRELY different critter than something like, say, a 1903 Springfield with a long bayonet . . . and much inferior! As long as the bullets hold out, an M4 (or better yet, a M16A4) is an admirable hop'n'popper, but it's not good for butt strokes. Steel and walnut, man, that's the answer! (He said, putting on his old Roman toga and declaiming proudly about the stern republican virtues.)
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Apr 3, 2010 2:42:18 GMT
While it's true that bayonets these days are pretty weak, as are the rifles that wear them, I'd still rather have one of those than a sword. Then again, I'm a knife guy, anyway. Really, knives are the premier "well I guess a gun's not my best option right now" battlefield weapon now. Have been for decades. If the rifle is out, get the side arm; if that's no good, well...get the knife. Swords are just too big to carry around with everything else you have to carry around and they don't offer much. Even the old intimidation factor has worn off; used to be some guy comes running at you screaming and waving a sword, you froze and crapped your pants. Now you just shoot him. Gimme a medium-size knife or, as mentioned, a tomahawk/hatchet. They just do more than a sword would, and are easier to wear and carry. Though, if we could go back to the glory days of rifles as tall as the men shooting them and bayonets as long as your arm...it'd be a different story.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2010 3:18:38 GMT
Well put. Let's not forget, swords are NOT mythical uber-weapons. It's funny how many of us who, better informed, still appreciate the katana but have punched holes in the uber-weapon myth about it compared to other sword types--only to overplay the mythical qualities of the sword in general.
Even at the zenith points of the sword in history, axes, spears, maces/clubs et al have proven pretty competitive. Knives have always been considered handier both to carry and use in tight spaces. Many of our own test cutting experiences clearly show how comparable a $25 machete can be to a quality sword at taking off a head or limb. The sword, when expensive, was a status item. When infrastructure advancements made the sword more affordable it became quite common, but still never close to the only choice.
It's all well and fine to fantasize about "when the bullets run out," but here's the simple truth: there are usually enough adversaries, somewhere around, with enough bullets left, that you're just plain toast--unless maybe you can get covered by your own allies with bullets left and get your butt out of there!
|
|
|
Post by shadowhowler on Apr 3, 2010 3:24:28 GMT
In regards to the modern swords... I like a good tactical sword, and will buy a couple... but I think MOST of a swords collectible appeal is as a 'thing of the past'... people want to own a piece of history. Sure, as collectors we over-romanticize the sword... but still, that owning a bit of history is a big part of the appeal for sword buyers, for the most part. I don't think Tac style weapons would ever eclipse that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2010 4:45:37 GMT
Even on the historic battlefield, swords weren't quite as prevalent as movies make them appear. Swords were expensive and took time to train with. Armies weren't made of nobles, they were made of hordes of common folk who would've only been armed as well as their lord could arm them. The cost of even munitions grade swords really added up.
When it came to arming peasants, it was more cost (and time) effective to load them up with axes, spears, clubs, etc.
And don't forget the Goedendag. This simple weapon allowed such peasants to make quick work of the most well-armed and armored nobility.
My point: Swords may be fun, but even in history they weren't as effective as we tend to assume.
Not to mention it really can be a pain in the behind to have to haul ass when you have a scabbard at your side. Even the best suspension systems will still have your scabbard bouncing around and knocking into things. Hell, my short sword on a simple sling ends up with the pommel bouncing off door frames when I walk through the house...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2010 15:56:31 GMT
Well, since guns are obviously a distinct part of this little modern sword topic, I would personally like either an older style M1 or the newer M1a style rifles. I like my 30-06 thank ye very much, course 308's the new "in" cartridge I suppose. Not to say m4's, ar's and all of them are lousy, just that I prefer my bullet to take out whatever my sights are on in one hit every time. I'm also planning on an sti Spartan as a sidearm. .45 is the way to go
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2010 18:25:33 GMT
I don't really think that this thread needs to turn into an apocalyptic preparedness thread.
The fact of the matter is that the modern sword market is fine how it is. There will always be enough people who have an interest in swords and will want to take it further then wall hangers. I don't think that we need to start a sword revolution and force manufacturers to produce new, stainless steel, double bladed saber, axe/sword, flashlight, lighter, foot massage sword hybrid. Because Bud K already has that "modern" sword market cornered and the agreement here at SBG is to avoid Bud K at all costs, and try to inform our friends about the wickedness of their ways.
We own old timey swords because we like old timey swords.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2010 7:37:46 GMT
As has been mentioned before I'm sure... Tactical Sword is an oxy-moron when set in a modern situation. I can think of no situation where I would want to carry a sword into any kind of fight. Sure I think it would be pretty cool if it was common for people to carry a blade, but it just wouldnt be practical. Tactical swords sound cool, look cool(sometimes), and for those of us who use them, are cool, but its definitely an oxy-moron. Just like the "living dead"...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 17:41:12 GMT
Filipino special forces carry a sword as a standard issue, the ginunting and no one who has seen one in action would argue it is obsolete or has no place on a battlefield. Also the knife is the premiere SHTF weapon short of a firearm.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2010 18:13:23 GMT
I don't know much about the Phillipines, but if these special forces fight in jungles, a short sword/machete like the Ginunting must be a great weapon. However, in many other battlefields, the sword is obsolete. In urban warfare, a knife/dagger would be far more useful, in the rare few case that a soldier is close enough for that sort of thing. In the afghan desert, any kind of melee combat is very, very unlikely, IMO.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2010 15:41:27 GMT
Bloodwraith and Sebastian make a good point: It's common for jungle filled nations to have their soldiers equipped with machetes/short swords/long knives because ironically in that case it is indeed the "tactical" choice.
|
|