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Post by sicheah on Mar 19, 2010 22:48:14 GMT
Noob question here.... Apart from aesthetics are there any good reasons to have a secondary bevel compared to an appleseed geometry? How do you remove the secondary bevel? Do you use a file (which type) or sandpapers? Thanks.
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Post by shadowhowler on Mar 19, 2010 22:52:58 GMT
You mean you LIKE the look of a secondary bevel? I sure don't. A bevel will mean that the edge, more often then not, will be more durable then if you smooth it out to an appleseed geomatry. However the appleseed edge almost alawyas cuts/performs better... and in my opinion, looks better. I hate secondary bevels. As for how you go from bevel to appleseed... you can use files and sandpaper or sharpening stones and the like... or you can use a belt sander as Tom K. and many others do.
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Post by sicheah on Mar 19, 2010 23:00:11 GMT
I don't like it at all . But I've seen some pictures of medieval antiques having secondary bevels and I am just wondering if there are benefit to it. I could be wrong, but I've read that a blade with secondary bevel might be durable than a similar blade with appleseed geometry.... Lol, I could only afford some files and sandpaper at the moment...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2010 0:17:15 GMT
Noob question here.... Apart from aesthetics are there any good reasons to have a secondary bevel compared to an appleseed geometry? The "good thing" about a secondary bevel is that almost any person with motor control can retouch and resharpen them. From a factory perspective they are cheaper and easier to make. From a geometric perspective, a secondary bevel does add edge support in a blade with flat surfaces, but that argument goes out the window with the geometry of niku From a cutting perspective it goes against the very science of why the katana is considered the sharpest weapon to cleave flesh and bone.
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 20, 2010 0:40:55 GMT
Oogway seems to have nailed it, based on my impressions. The biggest thing about the "secondary bevel" is that it is simply easier to maintain. Just grind at that one angle for the whole length of the blade. In modern times...accusharp it a few strokes and you're done. It's debatable which is stronger or which is "best" in the realm of actually cutting things; some would say that the extra ridge causes friction in the cut while others can't really feel a difference. Same as whether (using Japanese swords as an example) a hira-zukuri is better or worse than a shinogi-zukuri...which may or may not be any better than a kiriha-zukuri or u-no-kubi-zukuri. ...Buh? But yeah, basically...they're just easier to install and maintain, with minimal loss to performance etc. I don't like them on my good blades...I'm rather angry that I had to put on on my Kanetsune after it took some damage from striking some metal at a bad angle (inadvertently) but I don't much mind it on my cheapo folders and the like. It gets the job done just the same on that scale.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Mar 20, 2010 0:57:37 GMT
Secondary bevels exist on historic pieces simply because soldiers didn't always have the time or ability to do it right. I don't like them at all, not even on kitchen knives, they bug me. the guys above me have done a good job of explaining how to get rid of them and why they aren't good. it can be said they are tougher but I think the difference in toughness of a secondary bevel and a good fat niku similar in thickness to the secondary bevel will be so small that I doubt it would be noticeable. I know that I can tell the difference be tween the cutting ability of fat niku vs secondary bevel so to me there's really no advantage at all to the secondary bevel.
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Post by sicheah on Mar 20, 2010 3:15:25 GMT
Thanks guys, that clears up a little. I never like it myself, especially my cheaper sword doesn't even have one . Time to do some filling!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2010 15:18:22 GMT
It occurs to me that if you were a medieval man-at-arms on a long campaign march, you would kill to have a modern day accusharp in your pocket. Like Tom said, soldiers on the march wouldn't have time to put a proper edge on their weapon, so they'd have to make do. An accusharp is pretty much the quickest and easiest, albeit messiest method out there.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 2:49:38 GMT
For my darksword armoury gothic the accusharp put a nice edge on it, not the best but good, but on my cold steel light cav sabre the accusharp I used to sharpen it (factory edge was crap) did it no favours. Its got like a 5% sucess rate in my collection as a tool. Some secondary bevels work well but ONLY if they are on the right angle, nice and steep, if not its no better then blunt .......... Do I like them ...... not at all, kris cutlery seem to do something right though ? whats their secret
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 7:30:29 GMT
I think it should be noted that we are discussing at least 3 different types of edge geometry. I was able to follow along well enough, but there is a difference between appleseed, straight and secondary bevel.
A flat bevel edge would look something like this <> Appleseed like this, () And secondary bevel like this <██> (Obviously the edges would line up, but you get the idea.)
Personally I have noticed the edge staying around longer on an appleseed. I haven't the foggiest clue of the math behind it, but I'd bet it has something to do with the dome. On a straight bevel edge, I'm sure it works fine for any force applied to the point, but with a not so perfect cut, you'd be putting sideways pressure on the blade and from my experience, a flat bevel tends to have "micro" chips along the edge.
And yeah, I keep my machete's sharp with the accusharp, but other then a secondary bevel, there is no other way to sharpen them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 19:37:13 GMT
Maybe it's just a lack of skill on my part, but my swords with appleseed edges never seem as sharp, or cut bottles as good, as my swords that have a flat-gound 30 degree secondary bevel I have yet to see an edge get a chip in it
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2010 0:28:53 GMT
Maybe it's just a lack of skill on my part, but my swords with appleseed edges never seem as sharp, or cut bottles as good, as my swords that have a flat-gound 30 degree secondary bevel I have yet to see an edge get a chip in it That is correct. An edge with niku will not feel as sharp as a flat edge or a hollow ground edge. It may not cut bottles as easily either. Consider that flat thin "competition" katana are made to easily slice soft targets. Bottles are soft targets, so is a sheet of paper. Katana blades were made to encounter bone and armor which is not soft. This spells disaster for thin edges. Niku comes into play in that the edge has adequate support to not chip when it encounters something hard. The edge survives and is not chipped. The object being cut peels from the parabolic surface causing the cut to widen instead of clinging to the blade. The geometry is a balance for the entire job at hand, not just the soft parts.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2010 11:32:37 GMT
Garrett Chan of Jin-Shi swords also pointed out that the "appleseed" edge geometry is far more resistant to damage when using a sword in a defensive manner - parrying - than the other edge geometries in test he conducted with our fellow forumite Gundoggy.
That being said most of my knives and my machetes have secondary bevels and get sharpened with an accusharp, or in my case the generic equivalent to an accusharp.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2010 0:37:37 GMT
What does all this mean regarding medieval european swords?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2010 6:01:15 GMT
I means not much on a two edged sword as most were. I am no follower of the European but would be surprised if any of them did have the apple seed geometry.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2010 6:30:23 GMT
I means not much on a two edged sword as most were. I am no follower of the European but would be surprised if any of them did have the apple seed geometry. Well then you should prepare yourself to be surprised. Apple seed geometry was the standard geometry on European sword edges since before the time of the vikings. That's why it's nice that companies like, oh.... ALBION make their blades with apple-seed geometry on the edges. Valiant Armory and Gen 2/Legacy Arms make some kick-ass convex edges as well.
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 24, 2010 6:39:51 GMT
Gen2/Legacy Arms have very nice convex edges. At least, last I heard. The old 12th Century/Norman dagger I have does, anyway. Granted, the edge was reworked by a third party before I bought it so for all I know it was garbage first. I've heard otherwise from numerous sources, though. Just seems like...well...everybody else does otherwise. Even taking out the guys who manufacture blunts like Windlass, DSA, Weaponedge etc., Hanwei, Valiant, and others all make their Euros with secondary bevels. I can't speak to A&A or Armor Class or any of the higher-end models, but even Angus Trim puts secondary bevels on his swords. Granted, there are varying degrees of secondary bevels. In most of the cases I mentioned, the edge is still usable, and does fairly well. Of course, this refers to modern reproductions. Antiques, it seems, are seldom in any condition to judge. For whatever reason, the Europeans didn't take quite as good care of their swords as...everybody else. Thus, we still have all these old Japanese, Chinese, Indonesian, even Turkish etc. blades with serviceable, proper edges...but any antique Euro one finds is...a rusted piece of junk, with almost none of its edge intact. Shame.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2010 6:52:46 GMT
For whatever reason, the Europeans didn't take quite as good care of their swords as...everybody else. Thus, we still have all these old Japanese, Chinese, Indonesian, even Turkish etc. blades with serviceable, proper edges...but any antique Euro one finds is...a rusted piece of junk, with almost none of its edge intact. Shame. Random, what are you talking about? Plenty of antique European blades, (like the sword of Saint Maurice, for example) retain serviceable proper edges and intact blades. You might be misinterpreting the common practice of depositing swords in riverbeds (where OF COURSE they are going to rust away) as "people not taking care of their swords" when they had them.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Mar 24, 2010 7:55:13 GMT
well if you chuck the dern thing in a river you certainly aren't taking care of it. I would like to chime in here on what I see as a secondary bevel. it isn't that secondary bevels are terrible all the time it is that the way secondary bevels are done is typically terrible. TECHNICALLY any shift in geometry as the primary beven comes together will create a secondary bevel thus the name secondary: it is the second bevel on the bevel (if you follow). if you have a machette that is completely flat and you run an accusharp down it you will not have a secondary bevel but a steep and short primary bevel. Albion, ATrim, Tinker and other top line sword makers often have a secondary bevel on their blades. in the case of the Albion and ATrim swords I have seen this way the secondary was really tiny and blended very well with the primary bevel. this sort of secondary bevel is not really a problem. sure I still prefer a single bevel but if it blends well it is ok. the thing about accusharps, well one of the things as there are many, that really sucks is the angle is set and you cannot adjust it for the individual sword. not to mention as you use it and it wears it gets loose and the angle of the blades starts to shift *shudder* hey accusharps ARE instruments of evil that's all you really need to know. as for appleseed shaped edged a lot of European swords had them some didn't and some had complex edges that changed geometry like from hollow ground to convex (appleseed); see the arms and armor swiss long sabre from a few months back. I believe a sword should have the proper edge geometry for its type.
there are several examples of swords in Oakshotte's "Records" that are still in great shape and some are even still sharp. and yes, some have secondary bevels. but I like my swords to emulate the best of the type.
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Post by shadowhowler on Mar 24, 2010 8:05:08 GMT
Random does make a couple good points... 1. Because we lost the sword using tradition in Europe when guns took over.... its harder to find quality historical swords fully intact for western swords then it is for eastern ones, especially in the case of Katana, where it is not uncommon to find 7 century old weapons still fully functional. 2. Gen 2/Legacy Arms is one of VERY few production swords that consistently have a nice apple seed edge geometry on them. As Tom mentioned the edges on Atrim and Albion swords sometimes (often even, especially with Atrims) have VERY small secondary bevels. Tinker swords (the ones I have seen) have a noticeable, but extremely well done secondary bevel. The level of bevel on the new Valiant Armoury stuff is also VERY slight but present still on most pieces. Same with Hanwei/Tinker swords. Yet for some reason every Gen 2 sword I have ever gotten had a smooth convex edge profile.
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