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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2010 16:27:29 GMT
I noticed that pretty much every sword maker sells "handmade" swords and use this as a selling point. But from what I understand machines are better at this kind of work than us humans. Sure a handmade nihonto made by someone who takes pride in producing swords which can truly be called pieces of art would be extremely appealing; I think this is why "handmade" has become synonymous with high quality in swords. Not that I've ever even heard of a non-handmade functional sword anyways.
But lets face it, most production swords are just like the name suggests, a product, made on a production line, by people who sword-smith as a job, not as an artform. And I think this has become fairly apparent through the numerous stories of lemon-sword acquisitions.
This brings me to my point, why are there no machine/robot made swords? (if there actually are please let me know lol) I don't know tons about the process of forging a blade, and even less about robotics, but it seems logical that robotic arms, like the ones for building cars, could be programmed do it. And if every blade is made in the exact same shape, all the other fittings should fit perfectly; I wouldn't be surprised if perfect saya and tsuka could be carved by the robotic arms too. Exact same size and shape in all the blades also opens the possibility for laser sharpening. I bought a Smith&Wesson folding knife years ago and it was laser sharpened, it was by far the sharpest blade I've ever had my hands on.
So can anyone fill me in on why I don't see any swords marketed as machine-made?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2010 17:26:04 GMT
I think that they do the forging by hand because it's cheaper than buying all the required CNC hardware.
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Post by ShooterMike on Mar 18, 2010 17:38:37 GMT
Lots of modern-made swords are machined on CNC mills and hilt components turned on CNC lathes, especially in the U.S. But the finish work is always done by hand, using grinders and hand tools.
This is most common in the world of higher-end European medieval and Rennaissance sword reproductions from companies like Albion, Arms&Armor and Angus Trim. It is not very common in China, the Phillipines or India where most lower-cost Eastern and Western reproductions are made.
Machines are cheaper in the U.S. Labor is cheaper in the other countries mentioned.
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Post by shadowhowler on Mar 18, 2010 17:44:03 GMT
Machines are cheaper in the U.S. Labor is cheaper in the other countries mentioned. Bingo. Why go buy all the expensive equpment when you have people who work for pennys a day?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2010 19:27:17 GMT
Curious, could these be one of the swords you are asking about? www.sword-buyers-guide.com/tenchi.htmlnot sure if monosteel is different than machine made, but I know these swords are...wow...
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Post by shadowhowler on Mar 18, 2010 19:38:21 GMT
Curious, could these be one of the swords you are asking about? www.sword-buyers-guide.com/tenchi.htmlnot sure if monosteel is different than machine made, but I know these swords are...wow... Monosteel just means its a single metal used throughout rather then folded or mixed.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2010 20:52:14 GMT
Handmade, yes, when it comes to assembly of the sword and things like ito wrapping but make no mistake, almost all production swords are stamped out of steel on a machine, shaped by machine and polished by machine just like car parts or garden implements. The various shaped bare blades spit out the end of a conveyor into big bins by the hundreds. Those generic ebay sellers showing the video of the forging process in an attempt to convince people that every one of the thousands and thousands of identical swords they produce are 'hand made' are simple full of $#@*. It even bothers me that the factories these blades come from call themselves 'forges', because nothing is actually forged in the traditional sense. They merely heat treat the blades ( en mass) to fit the requirements, much like the springs in your car. Even the 'claying' of production blades to create a hamon are likely done on a production line by factory laborers. There is no art to these swords, any more than there is art to your Made in China crowbar or cupboard handle.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2010 21:34:53 GMT
Lots of modern-made swords are machined on CNC mills and hilt components turned on CNC lathes, especially in the U.S. But the finish work is always done by hand, using grinders and hand tools. This is most common in the world of higher-end European medieval and Rennaissance sword reproductions from companies like Albion, Arms&Armor and Angus Trim. It is not very common in China, the Phillipines or India where most lower-cost Eastern and Western reproductions are made. Machines are cheaper in the U.S. Labor is cheaper in the other countries mentioned. I am/was not aware that Cris Poor and Craig Johnson of Arms & Armor own or farm out any CNC work at all. Fittings are cast, blades a combination of forging and stock removal. Please post confirmation of their methodology if you have hard references to share. I would always defer to the business' faq and Craig's web/forum presence. Albion as well is generally cast fittings as oppposed to the lathing Gus does.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2010 21:36:52 GMT
I noticed that pretty much every sword maker sells "handmade" swords and use this as a selling point. But from what I understand machines are better at this kind of work than us humans. Sure a handmade nihonto made by someone who takes pride in producing swords which can truly be called pieces of art would be extremely appealing; I think this is why "handmade" has become synonymous with high quality in swords. Not that I've ever even heard of a non-handmade functional sword anyways. But lets face it, most production swords are just like the name suggests, a product, made on a production line, by people who sword-smith as a job, not as an artform. And I think this has become fairly apparent through the numerous stories of lemon-sword acquisitions. This brings me to my point, why are there no machine/robot made swords? (if there actually are please let me know lol) I don't know tons about the process of forging a blade, and even less about robotics, but it seems logical that robotic arms, like the ones for building cars, could be programmed do it. And if every blade is made in the exact same shape, all the other fittings should fit perfectly; I wouldn't be surprised if perfect saya and tsuka could be carved by the robotic arms too. Exact same size and shape in all the blades also opens the possibility for laser sharpening. I bought a Smith&Wesson folding knife years ago and it was laser sharpened, it was by far the sharpest blade I've ever had my hands on. I have thought about posting this exact thread many times in the past. You saved me the trouble, so thank you. Two reasons: 1) Romanticism. People associate handcrafted products with superior quality. 2) Ironically, the term "handmade" also lets you get away with selling imperfect products. People don't expect handmade products to come out exactly right every time. In fact, they may even appreciate some minor flaws as "proof" that the product was made by hand. (In fact, this line of thinking is very common among actual craftspeople - I've studied craftmanship, including bladesmithing, and I've lost count of all the times I've seen someone look at a flaw and go: "Eh, lets you tell it was handmade!") That means that if you claim your sword is handmade, your customer can't complain if the sword they get is somewhat different from the sword in the picture on your website. Especially not if you throw in a disclaimer reading: "Handmade swords have a degree of deviation" or something. Add a picture of a blacksmith somewhere and your're in business. On on the other hand, if you'd want to use "machine-made" as a selling point you pretty much have to do the opposite and promise no deviations or flaws. Now, I for one would love to see a company who has the cajolies to do exactly that, but I suspect most people would still consider them low-grade since industrial massproduction = bad quality in their minds. Anyway, I personally suspect "handmade" is about as accurate as "battle ready" - it can mean any number of things. Maybe it means the maker dug up and refined all the iron ore himself or maybe it means all components were machined and then put together by hand. I don't think there is a formal definition of the term in the context of sword production. For the record, it has been possible to serial produce swords with indrustrial machines since 1846, so I don't know if I buy the "they can't afford CNC machines" explenation either.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2010 8:36:20 GMT
I brought up this issue with a seller and their definition of "hand made". While I'm sure a lot of products have a human element in their construction I don't think it qualifies as "hand made". The notion of "hand made" represents quality and the skilled efforts of a craftsman. Especially when in the context of swords.
The reality is that most Chinese production relies on terrible working conditions and a pittance of a wage. Its very rare for reporters and journalists to be allowed access to the factory areas. There was a documentary on Channel 4(UK) about it. The horror stories are shocking. Its tantamount to slavery in some instances.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2010 8:43:56 GMT
Ah, you must be talking about cheness
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2010 16:58:03 GMT
I think we must remember that there is a difference between "hand made" and "hand forged". The former may mean any hand contact in finishing whereas the latter should truely mean pounded with a hammer to shape! Of course, it may be a powered hammer.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2010 23:50:58 GMT
All the $3,000 swords you'd ever need.
Of course, that cost doesn't come from the CNC machine, it comes from the people who are polishing and wrapping by hand as well as some professional guy who knows what he's talking about on board. (Sorry to make this sound second grade. But Albion has a guy working with them on history and whatnot, I just don't know exactly what he does.)
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Post by ShooterMike on Mar 21, 2010 1:38:12 GMT
Lots of modern-made swords are machined on CNC mills and hilt components turned on CNC lathes, especially in the U.S. But the finish work is always done by hand, using grinders and hand tools. This is most common in the world of higher-end European medieval and Rennaissance sword reproductions from companies like Albion, Arms&Armor and Angus Trim. It is not very common in China, the Phillipines or India where most lower-cost Eastern and Western reproductions are made. Machines are cheaper in the U.S. Labor is cheaper in the other countries mentioned. I am/was not aware that Cris Poor and Craig Johnson of Arms & Armor own or farm out any CNC work at all. Fittings are cast, blades a combination of forging and stock removal. Please post confirmation of their methodology if you have hard references to share. I would always defer to the business' faq and Craig's web/forum presence. Albion as well is generally cast fittings as oppposed to the lathing Gus does. I did lump A&A in with ATrim and Albion as far as machined blades go. And that certainly could be wrong. As for guards and pommels, Albion and A&A use castings. ATrims typically use have used machined guards and pommels. Though who knows for how much longer. I believe the new Chimera line of Valiant Armoury/ATrim swords will use exclusively cast pommels and guards, same as Albion and A&A. Sorry if I over-generalized. But still, machined blade blanks and cast pommels are "machine-made" IMO. And all are hand finished. So it seems like a slippery slope to call anything "hand-made" these days...
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Mar 21, 2010 1:42:17 GMT
I've hand sewn three kilts, needle and thread. Of course, the worsted wool was machine woven. Is that hand work, or machine work?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2010 2:05:09 GMT
Good question, I make my belts by hand but the cording is machine spun and purchased from a supplier so I guess it would be "hand assembled"?
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Mar 21, 2010 2:28:24 GMT
Dang, it's hard to be pure these days, ain't it?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2010 4:39:21 GMT
Of course, that cost doesn't come from the CNC machine, it comes from the people who are polishing and wrapping by hand as well as some professional guy who knows what he's talking about on board. (Sorry to make this sound second grade. But Albion has a guy working with them on history and whatnot, I just don't know exactly what he does.) What, Peter Johnsson? Dude makes the prototypes. He designs all the blades, carves all the hilt parts from wax, makes sure its all historical, basically the works. Albion's swords are machine made, but all of them are exact copies of the originals Johnsson made for them. I've hand sewn three kilts, needle and thread. Of course, the worsted wool was machine woven. Is that hand work, or machine work? Good question, I make my belts by hand but the cording is machine spun and purchased from a supplier so I guess it would be "hand assembled"? This, I think, falls under handcraft. It's where I draw the line, anyway. Of course, it depends a bit on exactly how hardcore you are. Some people do make their own fabrics, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2010 7:55:48 GMT
You can't make much without machines Even the axe that I used to fell a tree was a machine M.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2010 9:11:10 GMT
Yeah, thats the guy. I just have to remind myself that if I ever buy an Albion, that it's not gonna be heaps of money for some CNC and heat treating. But I think that "Hand Made" has to be viewed in relation to modern technology. If you think about it, the whole sword making process could be done with robots. If there was a greater demand for swords, it wouldn't surprise me to see an assembly line doing EVERYTHING from blade shape, furniture work all the way down to wrapping the grip. So I think in comparison to modern day wares, having a human do 80% of the work would, by all means, be called "hand made" I wonder if someone is allowed to get away with calling something hand made if more then 50% of the work is done by hands.
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