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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 9:15:10 GMT
Can 'o Worms. I know.
There has been a lot of talk over the last few...uh...well...okay. People have been talking about this for years. The more recent threads about "through hardened blades with hamon" got me to thinking, though...
Two terms.
Hamon.
Yakiba.
These are often used interchangeably, but are they truly the same thing? I mean, you could use them interchangeably when speaking about traditionally made Japanese swords in general, or even specific blades. These blades, however, are all expected to have the differential hardening.
When we talk about modern, non-traditionally made blades that end up showing a different steel structure on the edge, things go crazy. Everyone debates the idea that a through hardened blade could have a hamon due to what is commonly perceived as the "right" way for a hamon to come about.
Now, look at the word. Hamon. Edge (ha) mark/pattern (mon). It is the pattern displayed on the edge of Japanese swords (Sticking to Japanese because of the origin of the word) that traditionally comes about as a natural byproduct of the differential hardening. ...In the end, though, when looking at the word, it is just a mark.
What about the word yakiba? Obviously it comes from yaki-ire, which is the traditional hardening. Yakiba is the quenched/hardened edge.
Yakiba is the hardened edge. Hamon is the mark on the edge, generally understood to go along with yaki-ire. Now, when you look at a blade that has no true differential hardening but does have hadori, it's considered a hamon, even if it is not a "true" one by common understanding. It is still an "edge mark".
Okay, done rambling.
Is it possible for a non clay-coated, quenched blade to show hamon, such as is the case with the Ronin Dojo line, for example? I believe that it is still a hamon. Kris Cutlery, too.
While it is a hamon (in my mind), is it technically a yakiba? I believe the answer is "no", as it was not created through traditional yaki-ire.
So, in my mind:
Hamon? Yes. Yakiba? No.
Discuss?
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slav
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Post by slav on Mar 9, 2010 9:28:45 GMT
Ah yes, good distinction.
But with this distinction in mind, I actually see it the other way around. All DH blades have a "yakiba" (no matter by which method DH is achieved) by nature of the fact that the edge hit the water, but only blades that have been clay quenched (or selectively quenched) will have a hamon.
For example, a blade that was through-quenched but who's spine was then annealed will still have the same hardened edge (yakiba) that was created during yaki-ire (and the transition might even be visible); but will not have a real hamon (with habuchi, etc.).
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 9, 2010 9:29:12 GMT
...brain...asplode...halp
Uh...yeah. What you said. Sure. We'll go with that.
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slav
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Post by slav on Mar 9, 2010 9:31:28 GMT
Having read both of our posts a few times over; I find that both strains of logic make perfect sense int their own context. So, on second thought, I'm not actually sure if this clears things up in a conclusive way.
I think the discrepancy will continue forever....
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 9, 2010 9:35:25 GMT
brainsplode
Yeah, either way really seems like it could be right. I wonder what the resident experts might be able to offer, so I'll wait to hear their viewpoints. If they have a consensus, we have a satisfactory answer. If not...I have brain pudding again.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 13:42:58 GMT
AHHH.
I like green eggs and ham!
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Mar 19, 2010 20:17:41 GMT
the subject heading is a little misleading. I was all set to jump in against the horrendous "fake Hamon" but I see that this is more about the Hamon/temper line thing. I don't know what the proper classifications are but I do know that if it's not natural then I hate it!! no offense to those who might wear a bad hairpiece, but .......you get the point.
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Post by chrisosborne on Mar 19, 2010 21:46:08 GMT
Is it possible for a non clay-coated, quenched blade to show hamon, such as is the case with the Ronin Dojo line, for example? I believe that it is still a hamon. Kris Cutlery, too.
While it is a hamon (in my mind), is it technically a yakiba? I believe the answer is "no", as it was not created through traditional yaki-ire.
So, in my mind:
Hamon? Yes. Yakiba? No.
Discuss? Yakiba just means the hardened edge and I don't think it really cares how. Likewise yaki-ire is the process of hardening the edge. I don't think it cares how either. Whatever process is used to harden the edge is yaki-ire, and the hardened edge is the yakiba. For example, there are smiths in Japan currently working on techniques they believe were used back in the early days of sword making which involved hardening the edge without using a clay coating. So, what is traditional? I find that the answer to that question is often misunderstood and usually very generalized. In the old times polishers would often temper a sword themselves which they felt was too hard or brittle using hot ash before polishing it, which involved a great deal of skill. Today a sword-smith here or in Japan would likely be insulted. So again, what is traditional? As for some of these swords you mentioned, I would say if anything it would be closer to the other way around. They're generally so unskillfully done and with such an indistinct pattern, that while they certainly have a hardened edge or "yakiba", they arguably posses little that could be clearly defined as a real pattern or "hamon". Some of them that is.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2010 23:12:40 GMT
Sorry-didn't mean to intrude!Thought this was about real vs fake-I had a nice rant lined up against fake but that has gone down the toilet.I'll save it for another day-O well.Nice topic-interesting.I'll move along now! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2010 4:04:23 GMT
It was shown that a Norse Sax from the Vikings times had a hamon, how was this posible??? Did they clay the blade?? or when you harden/quence the blade in water, it will creat a natral hamon anyway? ?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2010 4:10:38 GMT
There are two major types of steel, shallow hardening and deep hardening. What the vikings used was carburized wrought iron, or mid to low carbon steel, which is very shallow hardening. What shallow hardening means is if you took a 2" square block of it and quenched it, then broke it in half you would see that the hardness only penetrates about 1/4" deep.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2010 10:38:42 GMT
It was shown that a Norse Sax from the Vikings times had a hamon, how was this posible??? Did they clay the blade?? or when you harden/quence the blade in water, it will creat a natral hamon anyway? ? Edge is thinner than the back of the sax and hardens better than thick spine so you have a difference in hardness visible as hamon if you polish it in a right way...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2010 8:08:07 GMT
Hello all. There is the edge quench which is popular among knife makers these days. Here is a quick and dirty pic of a knife I made from 1084 using the edge quench method. Oh, quick description of "edge quench". Blade is brought up to hardening temperature and only the edge is dipped into the quench medium. In this case, mineral oil was the quenching medium. Makes for a fiery, smokey show depending on your quench medium. Hydraulic fluid makes for some nice smoke'n'fire. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2010 2:31:40 GMT
Nice!! I like old motor oil, of coures I have it from doing oil changes on motorcycles, realy smells up the place, some times I do water when the choise of blade calls for it...SanMarc.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2010 7:17:33 GMT
sanmarc, Thanks! I think knife and sword makers need a better smelling quench. I'd love to use olive oil since it smells way better than petroleum based oils. But, I don't wanna battle irate raccoons and opossums to get to my quench tank. They're downright vicious here and won't give up food without a scuffle.
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