Parrying and damage to swords

Here is some damage to an approximately 100 year-old jian blade. Note that there are two overlapping nicks on the left (about 4" from tip) and another to the right (about 6" from tip). In addition, you can see a nick that has been polished out on the bottom, below the overlapping nicks. Whoever used this sword was pretty consistent with his striking points.

Okay Gundoggy, finally managed to read all the way through that thread. Kudos to Garrett for how closely his blades seem to be resembling the antiques from what was said, but the Parrying edge-edge issue is something that we don't think much about in modern times.

All good points. I was referring to the comments of how Garrett's work was holding up to the Huanuos.

Anyway, yes the parrying issue does shed new light on how blades get damaged. Now maybe if somebody could make something along the lines of the VA A-Trim I-beam trainer for Chinese Blades this would lead to a greater depth of understanding for those of us trying to understand the more martial side of Chinese swordsmanship.

I will give Garrett credit on that. I was referring to the VA I-Beam because it is exclusively a metal practice sword that has safety considerations in the design. If more of us were able to practice with metal trainers and blunts, I think that would shep a lot of light on things as to how the real Chinese blades handled without exposing ourselves to the inherent risk of sharpened swords. The $20 collapsible tai chi swords and some other one finds at most martial arts suppliers options just don't have the right feel. My cheapie wooden one feels more like a real blade than many of those those do.

Having some dedicated practice blades available on the market that handled like real weapons could only help in furthering the understanding of true practical Chinese swordsmanship.

I never said precautions didn't need taken. I think the best example of what I'm talking about comes from the WMA guys. Many of them are firm believers in steel blunts, and use them for practice (dry handling), pell work, and controlled partner drills - but they do take serious precautions when it comes to sparring for safety. What is happening with TCSL tourneys right now, is equivalent to sparring with bokken in JSA - it has inherent risk. That is why Shinai are preferred for sparring, they lesson the risk compared to bokken.

With the "training blade" concept I'm not talking about sparring alone. What would teach a person how a real sword moves through a form better? A piece of wood or a metal trainer that handles like a real sword? You and Garrett took a risk on practicing a parry drill with sharpened metal swords, you both went very carefully to see how the swords would act and to try and minimize the risk you were taking. In my opinion such a drill would be better done with steel blunts for the added safety. The student could learn how a real sword would act without the risk of lopping off a finger. Now should two students go at each other full force with metal blunts? No, that is an accident waiting to happen. But would a metal blunt help a student to better learn forms, basic drills, and some CONTROLLED partner drills? In my opinion that would be preferable to wooden swords because wood does not bind, flex, and slide like wood. I do believe having metal trainers available on the market would be a good thing for Chinese sword arts, and a marked improvement of the wushu pieces we have currently. (This is excepting the blunt Yang saber Hanwei came out with which is exactly what I'm referring to although it is a non-historic blade.)

Okay, using sirtre's analogy my view is that flexible and semi-flexible wushu blades in practice is equivalent of learning to hunt deer with a BB gun, a metal traing sword designed to handle like authentic Jian but without the sharpened edge would be more akin to stepping up to a .22 mag before moving to a .308 or 30/30. Noting acts and feels like steel except steel. In the parry drill mention in the original post, it was noticed that when two metal swords even when used in a correct manner with proper form will still make some unintentional edge to edge contact, resulting in small nicks and chips to the blade. It is my opinion that a metal training sword would have showed this effect in practice.

For those not familiar with the VA Atrim I-Beam here is a link, complete with a review by SBG's own J.E. Sarge: www.christianfletcher.com/Christian_Fletcher/AT305IB_-_I-Beam_Trainer.html

I am not saying that having a like item designed to mimic the performance of a Jian would replace the need for using actual swords and test cutting. But it would be better than many of the current market choices. No, such an item would not meet TCSL tourney rules, it is thin enough to slide through a facemask, but in controlled partner drills (I'm trying to emphasize controlled here) it would act more like a real weapon than a wooden sword allowing to students to learn that they need to compensate for the natural flex inherent in even a rigid blade steel sword. The are continuing advanced in polymer blade training weapons also, perhaps this could be an option as well. I don't know I'm not that familiar with them.

My end point, is that while wooden swords are an acceptable standard of training non-sharpened "practical" training versions of Chinese blades could only help us refine our practices more. (*more to add later, getting the little one to bed*)

yes... you are exactly on the button.... and definite on the CONTROLLED part. as for the hanwei practical tai chi... it is almost as light as a wushu but not as flexible. also way too sharp and mine is shrp full length from the factory. if you want to train blunt have one made by garrett and request a false edge, so when you later want it sharpened, there wont be as much to remove.

as for clubs and mass training and fulll out sparring... no. i agree with you 100%. that could be dangerous. a blunt false edge and especially sharp at controlled drills only and only for one on one training with a qualified instructor that is well trained and has extreme control of his self, sword and form.

it would be a great thing to get a decent chinese blunt or even a false edge. my brother and wife and i practice with a couple of false edge jian for our more moderate speed drills. (i mentioned sharps earlier... only slow speed.. obvious reason). bad part about the false edge is they are not well built. the best i have is a replica of the swann pirate king sword. it has a true rat tail tang... not welded wall hanger style... and it is a carbon steel of a a lesser grade. the best built one has a better tang but it is stainless. that pretty much says it all for blunt jian that i have been able find. due to the construction, i cannot spar very fast.

i would definite like to one day get a couple of false edged jian from garrett, but right now i am looking at a couple of foil for faster drills. but i will have to modify the hand guards.


on the original subject, if jian take edge to edge contact sometimes in a controlled drill... it would be understandable, as with any sword, that it would hapen in combat when your opponent doest really care about maintaining your sword after the battle is over.

Good luck with the polishing.

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I started a thread on oblique angle contact to an appleseed grind in the general section since it is a universal truth for all swords and not limited to Chinese blades.