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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 5:42:44 GMT
On the bottom is my 18" barong machete from Cold Steel. It is 3mm thick (not floppy) and I would really not want to be on receiving end of a thrust from this feller.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 6:23:59 GMT
The problem with a sword, particularly for a hurricane Katrina situation is that it draws a lot of attention to you. Any law enforcement or military people that is around are going to want to know what you are up to, and are likely to confiscate it. I could also see you drawing the wrong kind of attention. I could see a person with criminal intentions, who is better armed then you deciding that they like the look of your sword and taking it from you at gun point. I think a better option would be a machete, its much more subtle, it can be used for practical purposes, you can give any jumpy policemen a good excuse for why you have it, and if need be it is an effective weapon i used a sword to chase a thief away from my house who tried to break in the day after hurricane ike... then patrolled the neighborhood after that until the neighbors got home... upon contacting police who were too busy to respond and knew that i was patrolling, of course the fact that i called them first and that i work in the 911 system may have played a part in the understanding. a few hours after the attempted break in the police cruised by an waved at the wife, brother and myself sitting on the porch holding drawn swords. but in texas we have what is known as the castle law of 2007... burglar beware. as for a gun... they shouldnt see my sword until they are close enough that their gun is not going to help. one of the reasons that i do not like longer swords.... they can not be as concealed. tuck your jian behind your arm, and it is hard to see. Fascinating! What sword did you use to chase away the thief - a jian? Were you patroling with a sword too? This adds strength to the idea that the sword is effective. Its a good deterent of less violent robbers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 6:26:04 GMT
On the bottom is my 18" barong machete from Cold Steel. It is 3mm thick (not floppy) and I would really not want to be on receiving end of a thrust from this feller. I agree that barong would probably stab right through a man.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 20, 2010 7:18:53 GMT
I had been following the machete discussions and I've been puzzled by the assessment that a machete makes a poor thrusting implement. My thoughts were, "Well of course they are, they aren't intended to thrust into anything, they're choppers, hackers, brutal ones at that. Though I'm sure there must be a style of machete that would serve in some manner of thrusting; perhaps these guys are simply 'doing it wrong'." Now, on that note...that barong is a monster. Actually, many of Cold Steel's "machetes" would be just as stabby as choppy; particularly the kopis and kukri models. Heck, an actual kukri is essentially a machete and it stabs just fine. Now, the round-fronted (not sure if one can really call it a "tip" in this case) machetes one might find at, say, Wal Mart or the local sporting goods stores...unless extremely sharp on the fore-edge (the "tip," if you will) these will certainly not be doing any stabby work, no. A few of the more noteworthy Cold Steel designs? Good heavens, they'd do just about anything, I imagine. I just don't like their ugly factor... So yeah, I figure a machete is the best overall tool for post-civilization survival; they chop, they dig, they gouge, they can slice, heck most have enough edge to have different sections sharpened differently for different purposes; keep a bit toward the grip (or tip, your choice) as sharp as possible for light-duty peeling/slicing work, keep the CoP area moderate for the heavy chopping, and perhaps a bit between there and the grip, something else for something else, eh? Though a shovel...particularly one as seen in the "tactical" or camping models, with four edges and a point...that's a nasty tool to sharpen the right way. Who needs a sword with those two around?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 8:34:28 GMT
i used a sword to chase a thief away from my house who tried to break in the day after hurricane ike... then patrolled the neighborhood after that until the neighbors got home... upon contacting police who were too busy to respond and knew that i was patrolling, of course the fact that i called them first and that i work in the 911 system may have played a part in the understanding. a few hours after the attempted break in the police cruised by an waved at the wife, brother and myself sitting on the porch holding drawn swords. but in texas we have what is known as the castle law of 2007... burglar beware. as for a gun... they shouldnt see my sword until they are close enough that their gun is not going to help. one of the reasons that i do not like longer swords.... they can not be as concealed. tuck your jian behind your arm, and it is hard to see. Fascinating! What sword did you use to chase away the thief - a jian? Were you patroling with a sword too? This adds strength to the idea that the sword is effective. Its a good deterent of less violent robbers. actually i had a kat at the time my jian was were i could not reach it... and the jian i had at the time wasnt the best suited for combat use. i now own a jin shi that is fairly good. as for less violent robbers, all robbers should be assumed violent until i see them otherwise... flee or surrender. a well trained swordsman also would know how to disable an opponent and only be lethal when absolutely necessary. as for the more violent robbers, even with a firearm... as self defense advocates know in the unarmed styles of martial arts there are ways of disarming a man with a pistol at close range, and a sword can close that range a little more. i would find it hard to fire a weapon with the hand and pistol both lying on the ground... a wielded pistol is deadly force authorized by rules of confrontation. as for the average situation arising from violence in the streets in an apocalyptic scenario, or even a katrina like incident, i dont think it would be necessary to roem the streets with a sword while the national guard is patrolling... just my neighborhood and home. that would be enough to not worry so much about needing to conceal a weapon.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 23:08:22 GMT
I have a theory, maybe I am all wet, but in a short range confrontation, let's say you are in your house with a sword, and you heard a window break, or your door jimmied or kicked in. You decide to carefully go looking for the intruder, who is armed with a pistol. You both come around the corner at the same time. Your sword has been raised in preparation for a downward diagonal slash. Here's what I am thinking: the intruder does not know for sure what he will find, or what to expect, you do. He has no time to aim, so he might get off a panic shot that has a good chance of missing a vital area, or may miss you entirely. A bullet is a small object, even a .50 cal is only a 1/2 inch. Your sword, for the sake of this scenario, has a 27-30 inch blade. The odds, it would seem, are much more in your favor of not missing, plus if you have good technique, and a sharp sword, your first blow is going to be lethal, or at least devastating enough to stop the intruder from further attacking, allowing your next stroke to finish the deal.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 20, 2010 23:11:09 GMT
There are a lot of assumptions in that "scenario" as there always have been and always will be in these "discussions" and I will leave it at that this time.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 23:16:51 GMT
Random, I had thought that what made this scenario different, is I had never seen anybody compare the size of a bullet to the length of a sword blade, and thought it was a fresh idea You can paint a lot more of a wall with a paint sprayer than a magic marker
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 23:21:13 GMT
Of course, if you had a can of starter fluid (ether) and a trigger torch, then you have a devastating close-range flamethrower, and probably none of the components are illegal to own You would just need to let a little gas out of the torch when you first picked it up to be sure it would trigger on the first attempt
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 20, 2010 23:30:09 GMT
All this is still assuming the guy either fires after you hit him or misses. He could put his super-bright flashlight right in your eyes and fire away while you're blind. There are no new ideas in these things. They've all been done. Nothing has ever emerged "correct" or even "conclusive" throughout the history of this topic. All it ever ends with is a closed thread and hurt feelings, albeit thinly veiled. There is no "perfect plan" for this. There just isn't. Oh, right, .
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 0:02:26 GMT
All this is still assuming the guy either fires after you hit him or misses. He could put his super-bright flashlight right in your eyes and fire away while you're blind. There are no new ideas in these things. They've all been done. Nothing has ever emerged "correct" or even "conclusive" throughout the history of this topic. All it ever ends with is a closed thread and hurt feelings, albeit thinly veiled. There is no "perfect plan" for this. There just isn't. Oh, right, . No, I was assuming that he might even fire simultaneously with the swordsman's swing. Flashlight? I have never heard of thugs with tactical lights on their guns, but usually that would be law enforcement or gun owners with high end stuff, super bright flashlights draw attention to people who are trying to be sneaky since they are breaking the law. Plus at the range I am talking about, I would just swing for the light, and I am sure I would still get a large, devastating piece of that thug separated from the rest of his body
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 21, 2010 0:25:47 GMT
Again, you're assuming, speculating, over-and-under-estimating. Any thug with a gun can shoot the shadow at the end of the hall. I'd like to see anybody render a useful cut from there.
Let's face it, the sword is not, in fact I'd say it is far from the best or most practical "self/home-defense" option. An alarm a telephone, and reliable neighbors and law enforcement are. In the case of the proverbial feces meeting the proverbial fan, a handgun is the only viable option, where it is allowed. Otherwise, a bat or some such, as we've decided many tims before ob this very forum on the multitude of threads on this very same subject...leaves less mess, both clean-up detail and legal defense.
Swords...are just a poor option. I'd take a knife first, had I nothing better. Luckily, I have guns, and a phone. Not to mentio locking doors and windows everywhere. You'll tire of breakig down doors before I have to worry about you.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 0:28:36 GMT
just...no
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slav
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Post by slav on Jan 21, 2010 0:38:27 GMT
This is an old old old debate.
Common wisdom in the combat world provides that a trained man with a knife has a good chance against a guy with a holstered pistol anywhere within a 21 foot radius. Probably even more with a sword.
Drawn gun vs. drawn sword is anyone's game. It's really not debatable...
And randomnobody, I know many many people who would choose a shotgun over a handgun for home defense. In fact, I might be inclined to as well. A handgun is not the only viable option. But no, swords do not make that list at all.
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Post by slav on Jan 21, 2010 0:43:51 GMT
I always thought that it would be a neat test to pit a guy with a padded Chanbara sword against a guy with an airsoft pistol in a defined space, to see who wins and why....
In fact, I believe ShooterMike has witnessed such drills in his line of work. Maybe he can comment further...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 0:55:55 GMT
Well I have a 9 shot 12 guage, an SKS with a 40 round clip, wonder which one is better, fortunately I can choose BOTH, as I can fire either one single-handedly. That's a lot of lead ;D I thought the personal flamethrower idea was cool, where you are not allowed to own guns See, I have a scenario where I might have to sell my guns, and not be allowed to own any, I have a best friend who is in prison, convicted of a felony for which he is innocent. If he gets to parole out to me, the guns gotta go The closest things I could have to guns would be a nice Barnett tactical crossbow, perhaps a flamethrower, a laser, yes I can build it, but it is VERY expensive So you can see why I often think of scenarios where I don't have guns available to me
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 1:01:41 GMT
the bottom line is that all weapons have either some self defense, or even some total offense purposes. would the sword be the best, will always be dictated by the situation. if there is a mele in the streets with bladed weapons... yes. if there is an all out fire fight... probably not. as for home defense.... whatever weapon that you can get your hands on at the time becomes the best choice, simply because that is all you could get your hands on. my choice is to never use a gun... training, and muscle memory play a part in that decision. in the military you are trained to put two in the chest. never fire only once. if you are good enough then it becomes the head shot. the sword training that i received was generaly targeted toward disabling the opponent giving him a chance to surrender first, and killing is the last resort. a gun would be the worst choice for me for not that reason though.... it would be worst because i would have to be real polite and ask the burglar to please stand still while i run down to the pawn shop and buy one and wait 3 days for the clearance check to pass. dont own one, dont want one, and not gonna by one. as for safety... being an emt... i have heard of more kids killed by accident playing with daddy's pistol while he is at work that kids having the same kind of incident with swords. of course that would open up a whole new can of worms in the thread. lets just say if you have any type weapon in the house, all present should be trained in the proper safety and use.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 21, 2010 1:08:13 GMT
Oh yeah, I tend to forget about shotguns. I suppose I was coming from a mobility standpoint from the direction the discussion had turned; easier to duck, cover, fire with a handgun (for most) than a shotgun. Granted, the shotgun would be the better option for walk into room, fire, walk out style...
Sirtre also brings up interesting points that I will neither argue with nor expand upon.
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Post by slav on Jan 21, 2010 1:13:44 GMT
Shotgun is better than SKS for home defense. Brutal stopping power, and no risk of a ricochet or wall penetration.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 1:20:39 GMT
The other thing that many don't think about in all this sword self defense crap is that if you defend yourself with a sword you are going to court and even if it was self defense there is such a stigma attached to swords and the wounds they inflict that you already have a bias in the jury's mind. With my knowledge of swords, if I were ever on a jury I don't think I could ever consider a sword being used in self defense. In medieval days yes, in this day and age no. This is the legacy that is left to us by hollywood and criminals who choose to use swords. If you want to defend yourself at home, get a bat.
Sword: the guy with the gun wins because in about 99% of situations the person with the sword or other implement hesitates, the person defending against the robbery hesitates and gets themselves killed or injured. Do you know how hard it is to bring a weapon into play against another human being if you are not a psychopath, a sociopath or well trained in actual combat situations? Everyone who indulges in these hypotheticals generally have no idea what they are talking about, if they had an idea they wouldn't need to ask.
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