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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2010 16:19:39 GMT
Does it cost more to make a katana with bo-hi (fuller) or no bo-hi?
Intuitively, I would think making the fuller is an extra step and would cost more. However, all cheap blades seem to have a fuller, so this is not the case. Perhaps since the fuller is done by machine, the extra time to make it is minimal, and the manufacturer saves $ by using less steel?
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 16, 2010 16:46:15 GMT
On low-end blades, the bohi is typically cut by the same machine that "polishes" the blade...and maybe cuts it to sword shape to begin with...anyway, so it's really no extra step. Heck, I'd bet the "extra step" in this process would ne telling the machine NOT to cut a bohi...
That said, for hand-cut bohi...the task is quite labor intensive and pretty tedious...so it'll run you extra $$.
Another thing to bear in mind...I doubt the majority have a method of retrieving the steel removed to make bohi...so they're not really "using less steel" but wasting more... I could be wrong, but I don't see how the shaved steel would be salvaged and re-used.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2010 16:50:57 GMT
So, the ubiquity of bo-hi on low end blades is not an issue of money?
Is it that makers think bo-hi is more appealing to people who buy low end blades?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2010 17:00:57 GMT
Maybe low end makers make overbuilt blades to be durable because their tempering is so so, but than have to lighten them with a fuller?
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 16, 2010 17:14:31 GMT
Is it that makers think bo-hi is more appealing to people who buy low end blades? I'm going with this. "Blood groove" and all that.
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slav
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Post by slav on Jan 16, 2010 17:22:08 GMT
I think we have all pondered this question. And it is still baffling indeed.
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Post by Dan Davis on Jan 16, 2010 20:59:13 GMT
One of the hardest things to do on a japanese-styled sword is polish the ridgelines (shinogi-ji) such that they are level, even and match from one side to the next. The next hardest thing to do is to get the shinogi (flats) of the blade dead level and even from side to side.
The way to get around this on a production sword is to cut a bo-hi that is exactly the same width as the shinogi on both sides of the blade, This way the flats do not have to be polished flat and the ridgelines are heavy and pronounced, like a little metal cliff on the blade. Buff out the grooves on a power buffer, polish the edge and you are done. Cheaper, faster and you can sell it as an "added feature". totally groovy, man.
Bo-hi designed into nihonto and shinken by a swordsmith may run the length of the blade but do not cover the entire width of the shinogi; it is considered "inferior" and I do not know of any master smith (nippon tetsu-jin, anyway) that would have their name or the name of their forge associated with this technique.
Bo-hi added after the fact are all about fixing a defect in the blade, lightening a polished blade (essentially fixing THAT defect) or correcting balance issues for a new owner. As such, they rarely (I have NEVER seen one) encompass the entire shinogi.
So, it can be seen that the addition of bo-hi covering the entire shinogi are a production phenomenon, allowing for both saving of money and marketing and "enhanced" blade design.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2010 21:05:13 GMT
One of the hardest things to do on a japanese-styled sword is polish the ridgelines (shinogi-ji) such that they are level, even and match from one side to the next. The next hardest thing to do is to get the shinogi (flats) of the blade dead level and even from side to side. The way to get around this on a production sword is to cut a bo-hi that is exactly the same width as the shinogi on both sides of the blade, This way the flats do not have to be polished flat and the ridgelines are heavy and pronounced, like a little metal cliff on the blade. Buff out the grooves on a power buffer, polish the edge and you are done. Cheaper, faster and you can sell it as an "added feature". totally groovy, man. Bo-hi designed into nihonto and shinken by a swordsmith may run the length of the blade but do not cover the entire width of the shinogi; it is considered "inferior" and I do not know of any master smith (nippon tetsu-jin, anyway) that would have their name or the name of their forge associated with this technique. Bo-hi added after the fact are all about fixing a defect in the blade, lightening a polished blade (essentially fixing THAT defect) or correcting balance issues for a new owner. As such, they rarely (I have NEVER seen one) encompass the entire shinogi. So, it can be seen that the addition of bo-hi covering the entire shinogi are a production phenomenon, allowing for both saving of money and marketing and "enhanced" blade design. +1 for this informative post!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2010 21:21:43 GMT
i would have to agree with Randoms "blood groove" comment. its what the american market has come to expect, add to that the mistique behind it all, and lets face it despite it being incorrect blood groove just sounds cool. Maybe it all comes down to what sells, howelse to explain all the ugly, horrible,frosted, wire brushed , printed hamons on the market. But then again what do i know.
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slav
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Post by slav on Jan 16, 2010 21:27:25 GMT
One of the hardest things to do on a japanese-styled sword is polish the ridgelines (shinogi-ji) such that they are level, even and match from one side to the next. The next hardest thing to do is to get the shinogi (flats) of the blade dead level and even from side to side. The way to get around this on a production sword is to cut a bo-hi that is exactly the same width as the shinogi on both sides of the blade, This way the flats do not have to be polished flat and the ridgelines are heavy and pronounced, like a little metal cliff on the blade. Buff out the grooves on a power buffer, polish the edge and you are done. Cheaper, faster and you can sell it as an "added feature". totally groovy, man. Bo-hi designed into nihonto and shinken by a swordsmith may run the length of the blade but do not cover the entire width of the shinogi; it is considered "inferior" and I do not know of any master smith (nippon tetsu-jin, anyway) that would have their name or the name of their forge associated with this technique. Bo-hi added after the fact are all about fixing a defect in the blade, lightening a polished blade (essentially fixing THAT defect) or correcting balance issues for a new owner. As such, they rarely (I have NEVER seen one) encompass the entire shinogi. So, it can be seen that the addition of bo-hi covering the entire shinogi are a production phenomenon, allowing for both saving of money and marketing and "enhanced" blade design. See... I was thinking that for a moment after I posted; then I kinda forgot the idea. Thanks Dan, I think that is EXACTLY why they do it.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 16, 2010 21:33:37 GMT
Hadn't thought about the polishing aspect. That makes sense.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2010 23:04:06 GMT
So Dan, "A" is the authentic bo-hi and "B" is a cheap bo-hi?
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Post by Dan Davis on Jan 17, 2010 0:03:30 GMT
Pretty much, yes. Consider: In iaido the "whistle" made by bo-hi is used as an indicator that hasuji (edge alignment) is correct during a draw and cut exercise.
When you get into bo-hi as large as what you find on most production pieces it is going to "whoosh" (too big to whistle, so they whoosh) if you wave it around like a spirit stick at a high-school basketball game.
This whooshing sound will often fool a novice into thinking "this is easy" or "I learned this in one cut" or "I AM da' SAMyerEYE".
I believe this accounts (at least in part) for the popularity of blades with this type of bo-hi (type B).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2010 0:30:35 GMT
Thanks, +1 from me!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2010 7:36:01 GMT
SAMyerEYE of awesome and win ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2010 8:38:35 GMT
So Dan, "A" is the authentic bo-hi and "B" is a cheap bo-hi? Both are authentic and good if well done, to be completely technical.
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Post by Dan Davis on Jan 17, 2010 13:41:40 GMT
Well maybe, and I do not want to get into a pissing contest here, but I have never seen a nihonto made or modified with a profile as in example B and I have been looking at them for almost 40 years.
If you have an example that is not a shinken I would be most interested in seeing it.
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slav
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Post by slav on Jan 17, 2010 22:02:20 GMT
I concur. I cannot remember ever seeing a true nihonto where the shinogi and edgeward bo-hi lip were integral (a la most cheap fullered katanas). That was one extra thing that made the Masahiro [JinLong] Bamboo a cut above the rest; it had a nice narrow bo-hi that left the shinogi preserved.
Of course, some of the styles that often sported a wider bo-hi (such as Unokubi-zukuri) are a different story...
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Post by Dan Davis on Jan 17, 2010 22:14:04 GMT
True. Of course, unokobi-zukuri encompasses a geometry change of the shinogi (A radical one, at that) for the length of the mono-uchi.
Perhaps we should make that distinction plain: I am specifically talking about bo-hi that cover the entire width of the shinogi and extend from machi to kissaki.
Also, I mean wide bo-hi that are round-bottomed instead of flat-bottomed; indicating that it was cut with a ball-mill cutter.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Jan 18, 2010 17:00:22 GMT
That's very informative and interesting Dan. It had never occurred to me how adding a bo-hi could be a cost saving step.
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