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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2010 5:58:44 GMT
I've heard from the Chinese sword knowledgeable here that the jian was also worn by scholars as well as soldiers. I am assuming because the jian is also a symbol of the nobility, and scholars tend to be drawn from it -- I can't see a scholar dueling very much but I actually know very very little about Chinese history.
But what, if anything, separates a "scholar" jian from a "military" jian? I may or may not fancy myself something of a scholar and wouldn't mind adding an appropriate jian to my collection some day.
M.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2010 6:56:03 GMT
The idea of "scholar" jian and "military" jian is mostly a modern way of dividing up jian. It's really just a way of differentiating between quality of jian. The "military" or "militia" jian were the ones made by village blacksmiths, often heavier and plainer than their more expensive brethren. Since they were usually made for the militia or common soldiers, these jian were designed for a better cut rather than the thrust. After all, the wielder would not be as trained in martial arts. The idea of the "scholar" jian comes from the later periods when the upper class were forced to take up weapons to defend themselves/property (Earlier Confucian scholars would certainly find owning a weapon of war detestable). Contrary to popular belief, they were neither more delicate than their cheaper brethren nor meant for just training tools or nonlethal damage. To put it simply, the idea of "scholar" jian is simply a more expensive jian commissioned from a good smith. Being custom, they'd have better quality overall, from handling to durability to looks. To recap, the names are just easier ways to group general quality. Basically, just like today, you got what you paid for. Pick up a nice blade that is of good quality, learn a couple traditional techniques, and you'll be scholar enough
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2010 18:37:25 GMT
It's also worth noting, that part of what lead to the assumption the the Jian was a sword of scholars and the nobility was the widespread use of Dao blades among the military and militia groups. While both weapons were used widely across Chinese culture, it would have been more common for people in the lower classes to be armed with Dao from periods of military conscription.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2010 5:45:26 GMT
The idea of "scholar" jian and "military" jian is mostly a modern way of dividing up jian. It's really just a way of differentiating between quality of jian. The "military" or "militia" jian were the ones made by village blacksmiths, often heavier and plainer than their more expensive brethren. Since they were usually made for the militia or common soldiers, these jian were designed for a better cut rather than the thrust. After all, the wielder would not be as trained in martial arts. The idea of the "scholar" jian comes from the later periods when the upper class were forced to take up weapons to defend themselves/property (Earlier Confucian scholars would certainly find owning a weapon of war detestable). Contrary to popular belief, they were neither more delicate than their cheaper brethren nor meant for just training tools or nonlethal damage. To put it simply, the idea of "scholar" jian is simply a more expensive jian commissioned from a good smith. Being custom, they'd have better quality overall, from handling to durability to looks. To recap, the names are just easier ways to group general quality. Basically, just like today, you got what you paid for. Pick up a nice blade that is of good quality, learn a couple traditional techniques, and you'll be scholar enough Well, I have a different opinion. Wen jian and Wu jian have been mentioned a real long time in China. Poets like Li Bai were playing around with swords (sword dance), but never ever fought a single fight (danced the sword). Those weapons were not as sharp, had rounder tops, were much more lavishly decorated, with lots of preciuos stones, inlays etc. All rather unpractical for real fights. Also the weight differed. But interestingly, there are also sources mentioning purely decorative sword with the military, especailly in later times. Concerning Confucianism, I also like to differ. It was even in the man's curriculum himself, that he propagated hourse riding and bow shooting. After all, Confucianists knew exactly well that reigning a kingdom needed some weapons. Maybe they did not like to fight or just could not, but atleast archery was common among them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2010 13:41:24 GMT
I'd certainly agree that there were swords meant for performance, practice, and decoration. It's very much inevitable in any culture with swords, I'd venture to say. My point was more that this modern conception of wu jian being all the nice fighter jian and scholar jian all being round-tipped mantle-hanging status symbols for the rich and martial practitioners isn't completely accurate, and that jian of different qualities did exist for upper and lower classes.
Admittedly, my mention of Confucianism (who decided on that Romanisation anyhow? It's terrible) was much too broad. I know they did understand necessity of arms, especially since Confucius himself was of military stock. Indeed, Meng Zi (Mengcius) later determined that deposing a king was righteous and necessary if the king was a tyrant. What I meant was that devoted followers would be less likely to purchase an expensive piece of weaponry to glorify on their mantle, as opposed to say a general. No doubt they would own weapons in such times, but it would not be openly flaunted. It'd be pretty poor li3, I'd think.
Thanks for the corrections though. Sometimes in an attempt to be more brief, I oversimplify.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2010 14:19:34 GMT
I'm of the opinion that all Chinese Romanizations are terrible. Jian sounds like Jen or Jin, Wuxia sounds like Woosha, Tao sounds like Dao...ugh. Makes me sound plenty dumb when I try to pronounce anything I read Still, thanks for the feed back. I'd like to add a jian to my collection eventually (by which I mean the architypical one with the wing style guard, not the apparently guard-less ones I see in certain drawings) I may go with Garrett, though are those jians the wushu (woo shoo?) type or "weapon" jians? M.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2010 21:21:56 GMT
Garrett and Jin-Shi make real swords. The floppy Wushu (Woo Shoo, yes) blades can be gotten fairly cheaply at any martial arts supply.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2010 2:34:01 GMT
..... Thanks for the corrections though. Sometimes in an attempt to be more brief, I oversimplify. Agreed now, and most welcome, as I myself tend to do the same, when it get's a bit heated, lol. Concerning the romanizations of Chinese, that is really an ever lasting problem. First, I learned Wade Giles at university, so we wrote T'ai-chi ch'üan. Then I learned Hanyu Pinyin, the official PRC transcription system, and we wrote Taijiquan. Neither of both is usable without any intensive schooling. Finally, I studied classical and long character Chinese here in Taiwan, where they use something called Bopomofo, a list of simple symbols connected to sounds (phonems). With that all kids learn Chinese here, it takes only about half a day to learn, and as it is not connected to any western alphabetical sounds, it let's you understand the different Chinese phonems best. But, who the hack uses Bopomofo? Even the UN uses Pinyin, so we just don't have any real choise. Confucianism is Ruxue in CHinese, the big master is Kongzi, the other one would be Mengzi, and the Latinisations of Confucius or Mencius are just plain western arrogance.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2010 3:24:20 GMT
Can't say I've learned Wade Giles, although I've learned pinyin and bopomofo. Haha, bopomofo was great. My teachers taught us some horrible song to learn all the proper sounds. Definitely superior when it comes to pronouncing a word.
Admittedly, pinyin does make typing in Chinese a lot easier though. I could never type with bopomofo properly, even with a keyboard I got in Taiwan that had the symbols written on the keys.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2010 6:08:59 GMT
Oh, that song! All kids have to learn it, and some fo us foreign students, too.
And of course, I also key-in Chinese characters with Pinyin + tones, even got me a keyboard without all those colourful bopomofo symbols (I see atleast 4 different coulous on any pad of my wife's keyboard, her being Chinese, looks too confusing!)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2010 12:33:47 GMT
I speak and type English and bad English
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