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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 20:41:24 GMT
Alrighty then, I am sorry to bring up such a "hot" topic. Please know I'm not trying to stir up dissent, I'm just curious about these things.
ALRIGHT THEN- so I've heard that Folding Steel will only either be cosmetic or not strengthen a blade- which to me makes sense given the purity of modern steels. However, what the heck is pattern-welded damascus and what does it do? I've never fully understood.
My second question is about lamination. Will this actually strengthen a blade, in say the Kobuse or San'mai method? IS it doable with modern steels? And does lamination INVOLVE folding, or is that separate?
What about folding steels together (ie 1045 and 1060 or summat)
Please be civil as I am just asking this question I can't seem to find a straight answer on through all my delving/lurking- so +1 to whomsoever can give me a good answer.
Cheers, -somewhat
PS is there a way to change my ID so that I don't get confused with an infinitely more illustrious member?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 20:59:34 GMT
I'm eager to read the discourse; anytime I think lamination I think ID cards...weird, eh?
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Post by brotherbanzai on Dec 16, 2009 21:01:21 GMT
Dan or Sam can answer this much more accurately than I can, but as I understand it... Pattern welded steel (which is now often called Damascus because it looks similar to actual Damascus) is two or more types of steel forged together and/or folded to show a pattern.
Lamination can be used to make a blade with the different properties of different steels all in one blade. Like a softer steel for the core or spine and a harder steel for the edge. I don't believe it is necessary to fold to laminate though you can. You can also fold one section of the laminate and then weld it to a non-folded section and have a blade that is folded in one area and not another.
If you fold 1045 and 1060 together you get a blade that is a blend of the two. You can also fold different types of steel together to get more pronounced pattering. It's helpful if they have similar working characteristics so you aren't overheating one and under heating the other.
My understanding of this is pretty basic though.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 21:11:03 GMT
PS is there a way to change my ID so that I don't get confused with an infinitely more illustrious member? I will let others who are more qualified answer your first question, but i can help you with your last one. Simply click on the 'profile' icon at the top of the page under the SBG banner. Then click 'modify profile' Go to the 'display name' box, and type in what you want your name to be. Then scroll down and click 'modify profile' to save your changes. * Your account details will always be listed under your current name, but your display name can be whatever you want it to be (within reason ) *
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Post by sicheah on Dec 16, 2009 21:15:49 GMT
Agree with brotherbanzai on points on lamination of steel. Back in the old days where impurities in a steel matters, lamination and folding does gives you the benefit over an unfolded mono-steel blade. With modern steels these days, even a well tempered 1095 TH monosteel blade can make a pretty decent sword. Just like somewhat_ichiban, I would like to know if lamination has any "noticeable difference" in terms of durability and/or edge retention over a DH monosteel blade using modern steel. I am not sure if you could change your ID but you could definitely change your display name (everyone does this once awhile, click on "profile" and then "modify profile" and change your "display name" [Edit:] In addition, there are those "twistcore" blade that could be found on expensive Chinese blade. I heard the "twistcore" blade technique originates from the Malay Archipelago and you could see them on "keris" (or kris). Not sure if it "makes the blade better" but it certainly look nice. Got a picture from sevenstarstrading.com
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 21:15:53 GMT
Pattern welding is done for aesthetics but the result could certainly change the nature of the blade. This is the process of making a billet of multiple steel types stacked together and then folding any otherwise manipulated to form a grain in the steel. Dynasty Forge uses a 9 layer billet for their forge folded blades.
Folding mono steel is mostly for looks but if different metals are used in the layers, the result could effect resilience and strength. Folding, if done badly will result in a poorer blade, but if done correctly it would not have a negative effect.
I watched a show recently abut a smith that claimed the folding and twisting (when done properly) make the blade more resistant to cracking as the crack must follow the twisted grain structure to fail. He also cryo-treated his blades, another hotly debated subject.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 21:21:19 GMT
PS is there a way to change my ID so that I don't get confused with an infinitely more illustrious member? I will let others who are more qualified answer your first question, but i can help you with your last one. Simply click on the 'profile' icon at the top of the page under the SBG banner. Then click 'modify profile' Go to the 'display name' box, and type in what you want your name to be. Then scroll down and click 'modify profile' to save your changes. * Your account details will always be listed under your current name, but your display name can be whatever you want it to be (within reason ) * +1 for you good sir! Thanks for the discussion, I'm eager to hear more. You there Sam Salvati
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 21:22:21 GMT
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Post by YlliwCir on Dec 16, 2009 21:34:22 GMT
The "Lamentation of their women" is part of Conan's answer to the question "What is best in life" and is an entirely different issue than "The riddle of steel". Tho I guess an argument could be made that steel is what is best in life. I hope this helps.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 21:35:43 GMT
You know what's really funny? You don't look like the funny guy type and yet, your wry humor has always left me laughing, my man.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Dec 16, 2009 21:43:41 GMT
Yeah, I think RicWilly is the funniest guy on the forum. I think of that line from Conan "lamentation of their women" every time I hear the word "laminate", cause in the movie it kinda sounds like he's saying "lamination", and then I always try to imagine what it would sound like when the women got laminated.
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Post by YlliwCir on Dec 16, 2009 21:47:50 GMT
Thanks, guys, I'm here all week. ;D
Sorry for the sidetrack, Somewhat. I, of course, know nothing about the real topic of this thread.
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Post by alvin on Dec 16, 2009 21:48:50 GMT
.....and then I always try to imagine what it would sound like when the women got laminated. Sounds like something kinda kinky to me.....but I'm just a dirty, old man !!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 21:49:01 GMT
Yeah, I think RicWilly is the funniest guy on the forum. I think of that line from Conan "lamen tation of their women" every time I hear the word "laminate", cause in the movie it kinda sounds like he's saying "lamination", and then I always try to imagine what it would sound like when the women got laminated. If you're the core in a Shihozume lamination, only good.
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Post by YlliwCir on Dec 16, 2009 22:04:02 GMT
Yeah, I think RicWilly is the funniest guy on the forum. I think of that line from Conan "lamen tation of their women" every time I hear the word "laminate", cause in the movie it kinda sounds like he's saying "lamination", and then I always try to imagine what it would sound like when the women got laminated. If you're the core in a Shihozume lamination, only good.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 22:06:25 GMT
If you're the core in a Shihozume lamination, only good. SORRY for the slightly sickening joke- I do most thoroughly apologize for any offence. But not for any laughs Where else could people understand jokes about sword forging than SBG? Back on track: do laminations make an actual difference? What about the folding of steels in lamination? That's the original question.
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Brett Whinnen
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Post by Brett Whinnen on Dec 16, 2009 22:43:42 GMT
I'm not a smith (would be cool though, well hot) nor an expert but here are my thoughts anyway.
Folding (specifically in Japan) was a way to work out impurities and also any voids from the raw smelted steel (tamahagane) they had available. By virtue this gave the finished product better properties and the final drawn out billet was more refined.
Lamination and the various ways it was done in Japan over the years was a way to marry certain properties of the refined steel into certain parts of the blade. My understanding is this was just purely forge welded and never folded after the forge welding was done (as opposed to the modern representation of the look of damascus, which is forge welded separate billets and then folded (that is my understanding of it)).
So to take the lamination further you had a good quality steel that would harden up well for the ha, the core would be something softer and not necessarily of the same quality and the mune could then be different as well. I'm not sure what normalisation processes they went through prior to the final heat treatment for a laminated blade as opposed to a folded blade from a single billet.
What I'd think (stress think) is that traditionally folding prior to lamination for Japanese smiths, refinement of the tamahagane to the final stage, then lamination if it was wanted or needed depending on the smith, the era and the blade.
For modern pattern welded steels it would be lamination followed by folding to give the 'damascus' type pattern in the steel.
Could you laminate modern steels in the way the Japanese smiths did it traditionally? Sure, I cannot see why not, but do you need to is the big question? From a traditional point of view you'd be smelting your own tamahagane and forging the sword in the correct manner. if you do it with modern steels isn't it still just a Japanese sword like object? (another debate topic for another time I'm sure, as if it hasn't been done to death previously)...
Brett
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 23:10:14 GMT
I'm not a smith (would be cool though, well hot) nor an expert but here are my thoughts anyway. Folding (specifically in Japan) was a way to work out impurities and also any voids from the raw smelted steel (tamahagane) they had available. By virtue this gave the finished product better properties and the final drawn out billet was more refined. Lamination and the various ways it was done in Japan over the years was a way to marry certain properties of the refined steel into certain parts of the blade. My understanding is this was just purely forge welded and never folded after the forge welding was done (as opposed to the modern representation of the look of damascus, which is forge welded separate billets and then folded (that is my understanding of it)). So to take the lamination further you had a good quality steel that would harden up well for the ha, the core would be something softer and not necessarily of the same quality and the mune could then be different as well. I'm not sure what normalisation processes they went through prior to the final heat treatment for a laminated blade as opposed to a folded blade from a single billet. What I'd think (stress think) is that traditionally folding prior to lamination for Japanese smiths, refinement of the tamahagane to the final stage, then lamination if it was wanted or needed depending on the smith, the era and the blade. For modern pattern welded steels it would be lamination followed by folding to give the 'damascus' type pattern in the steel. Could you laminate modern steels in the way the Japanese smiths did it traditionally? Sure, I cannot see why not, but do you need to is the big question? From a traditional point of view you'd be smelting your own tamahagane and forging the sword in the correct manner. if you do it with modern steels isn't it still just a Japanese sword like object? (another debate topic for another time I'm sure, as if it hasn't been done to death previously)... Brett +1 for a useful post; I already knew about the tamahagane "mystery steel" that needed refinement from folding, I was just wondering about laminating today with modern steels, and if folding after laminating would bring the desired effect. I was also asking if it would help at all. Thanks very much! Somewhat
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Brett Whinnen
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Post by Brett Whinnen on Dec 16, 2009 23:21:19 GMT
Folding after laminating (if you are using different steel types with different desired qualities) would in my opinion serve no purpose. You then change where the steel would be respective to where you wanted it in the first place. Think of the most common lamination a U shape of steel for the ha and ji and a O shape for the core and mune, where the O is welded inside the U. If you start folding this you would end up with a part of the U running up through the core if folded lengthways. Not quite what they had in mind I think...
Brett
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2009 7:46:13 GMT
our comany offer lamenited and V-forged swords , but i do not know them are more stronger then normal steel ! aesthetics is an improtant factor i think .
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