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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2009 23:11:21 GMT
Hello SBG! My first post... I am brand new to the sword world! This seems like a great site and a great place to start. I will be as clear as possible in what I am looking for so you can best answer me.
First about me: I am 6'0" and have long arms. I have quite a bit of hand to hand combat training but only have some experience with knives and batons and even then it is mostly defensive training... I really know virtually NOTHING about swords (other than what master Akira Kurosawa has taught me!). I do mixed martial arts after hours in a traditional dojo where they do some kind of sword martial art too and judo at another dojo that does a sword art. So I will probably want to be training with this sword and that is something to keep in mind.
Now about my future sword: I have only looked at the five swords on the "shortlist" on the SBG website... as I thought this would be a good jumping off point. I like each for different reasons but I am leaning towards the Cold Steel Gim sword. I think that the $300 cap imposed on that list is my upper limit as well. I want a sword that is going to be very sharp, durable, handle well and look nice. I will probably have it on display in my bedroom and as I am a student living in a bad neighborhood I would also want something that could be used for self defense if need be. This is really the only thing that draws me away from the Gim sword... it is beautiful and looks like lots of fun (the review emphasizing its sharpness, durability, handling, and aesthetic beauty)... but the Ninjato for instance seems like it would make a far superior weapon in CQB (close quarters battle). I am also too young to own a gun and wouldn't really want one anyway. I guess before I ask any specific questions (like how you even hold your sword in CQB, which would then determine a maximum effective blade length and overall length) I will see what kind of answers I get to this post.
I am totally open to any swords that were not on that list... I limited myself to that list originally because I felt like I could trust those swords and those reviews and it was a good place to start learning from. I will also probably be getting a cold steel training sword that most similarly emulates the sword I end up buying. This way I could safely drill kata, engage in swordplay, and even do some 'live' drills with my friends. In fact after I get a good answer to the what sword question then I would want to know what would be the best training sword to buy.
Will the celtic sword be too slow? Would the more brittle edge (due to the differentially hardened blade) and fragile blade be a problem with the Hanwei Ninjato (or the other two swords on that list that are of this more traditional style)? Will the Gim be too long for CQB?
Those are just a few of the questions that you guys might want to consider.
Another interest I have is in learning about the different purposes of these swords... I understand the Gim is more of thrusting weapon and the celtic sword is more of a slashing weapon. The katanas also seem to be meant for slashing and the Ninjato appears to have the advantages of both designs. How does this translate to how you use them? Which would be best in real life situation? etc... (I also couldn't help but notice that the Gim did not fair to poorly against the 3" pine limb in the video in the review)
Thank you people so much!!! I really appreciate the help and the answers and I hope that I can get all of my questions answered and then make a purchase I will be happy with!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2009 23:29:54 GMT
If I may suggest, look into Musashi katana. They run about 60-150 USD from most vendors. They're sharp, quick, and from what I understand you can get what's called an Iaito, which is a katana with a blunted edge. If this is the case, then you can get a sword similar to what you'll be using to train with as a blunt. It'll be more lively than the cold steel bokken and will give you a good feel for live steel and how it handles. Hope this helps.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2009 0:10:40 GMT
A sword isn't very good for home defense, nor do we advocate it. Baseball bat is the common one... I have a pair of sai next to my bed and even those I would run into legal problems with should I ever use them... IMO the best home self defense weapon that isn't a gun is a cane but you need to get a lil instruction in how to make use of its versatility.
Now when you say you're going to be training with it... do you mean at this dojo you do MMA at or just in the backyard kinda training.
If you're gonna train at the dojo... ask them what to buy and assuming its a Japanese Sword Arts school you're going to need a katana. You'll also start with a bokken (wooden sword) then an iaito (unedged sword).
If you're just gonna do some backyard stuff (be extra careful with it... backyard cutting is fine but self training is frowned upon, and for good reason). Then go nuts and pick what you like, but also be aware there are no actual training for the ninjato because its a fictitious sword... In reality that sword belongs in the fantasy section not the japanese section.
I haven't ever handled a Celtic sword so can't comment on the handling of one, but the balance of it is what'll really make it fast or slow (plus ya no... how you use it). But I'm pretty sure there are members here with celtic style swords who can chime in... I think Ricwilly has a few.
A ninjato isn't really good for slashing or slicing.. not that you can't, it just isn't as suited to it as a curved blade.
But as far as a first sword the Hanwei Ninjato has good reviews, I've thought about picking up one myself many times as for whatever reason I do like the thing... Did you have a specific celtic sword in mind? Kris Cutlery has one as well as numerous japanese style swords, and Chinese ones... might be worth taking a look at. THey're within your price range and have a rep for being no frills and durable.
As for the edge... a DH (Differentially hardened) edge will be more prone to chipping especially with a lack of experience in cutting which is why many people suggest a TH (Through hardened) sword for someone whos just starting out and still learning technique and edge alignment. Sacrifice a little edge retention for added durability.
Lastly don't judge any sword based on how it fairs against a tree branch... you shouldn't be chopping those anyways if you wanna do that just get an axe. Swords were meant for chopping people, not trees, or armor, or concrete or any of that.
I think I covered everything I intended to...
Plenty of places to look though...
Kris Cutlery Cold Steel Dynasty Forge Hanwei Musashi swords I'm sure someone will inevitably suggest Cheness... but I would suggest not bothering with them.
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Post by sicheah on Dec 13, 2009 1:52:46 GMT
I see you are interested in cold steel (CS) gim sword. Though I've never owned one, I've heard that people are generally happy with their CS gim because they are sturdy and great for cutting. On the downside, cold steel tends to "over-build" their swords, making it slightly heavier than similar swords (a typical antique jian/gim of that size are usually a few ounces lighter, and has a slightly more forward balance). Nevertheless CS gim is definitely better than most whippy Chinese wushu swords around. If I am not mistaken the CS gim has a 30 inch blade...which is quite long when it come to close quarter drawing. Personally I look at Chinese jian as either the long version "chang jian" or the short version "duan jian" and CS gim is definitely the "chang jian" variant. Unfortunately there isn't a production "duan jian" in the market right now...unless you are interested in similar sword like a gladius or a celtic sword. If you are interested in Chinese swords in general, another alternative in getting a functional sword around $300 is to visit www.jin-shi.com you could get one custom made at any length you desire and Garrett at jin-shi knows a good deal regarding Chinese swords. In addition Hanwei might release some functional cutting jian/gim and dao sometime next year. Before making any purchase, I would advise to spend some time into learning about swords and how it is made. SFI www.swordforum.com and www.myarmoury.com are some of the other forum you might want to check out in addition to this forum.
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Post by genocideseth on Dec 13, 2009 5:54:14 GMT
Why not try training with a stick? It is what I used to do all the time. It made me decide I like a sword I can easily grip with one hand, but CAN be gripped with two hands. I like a bit more weight towards the tip as well. Anyway, training with, say, a broom stick shaft will help you find a comfortable "zone" with holding it. Whether you grip it like a spear, a one handed sword, or a two handed sword. ;D (If I am little-to-no sense, it is because I am tired right now. )
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2009 6:09:07 GMT
Seth, at what point do you make the transition to blades? I have sticks right now. Swords are sooo purrrty. Maybe I should carve a bo-hi into one so it goes "whoosh."
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Post by genocideseth on Dec 13, 2009 6:21:42 GMT
I am not sure. I am guessing when you feel comfortable, and in a way, "one" with the stick. To the point you never hit yourself and it feels like a piece of your arm, but longer. I would like to say I did this intentionally, but truth be told, I would have bought, and used a sword at any time I was allowed. ;D I was dumb. Basically, I never did it intentionally, but I find the way it happened worked for me. Might work for anyone else too.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 13, 2009 6:43:32 GMT
wow, you've really covered the gamut here. you listed a European dark age sword, a Chinese martial arts sword, and a Japanese fantasy sword as well as listing what sounds like two dojos that teach what sounds like traditional Japanese swordsmanship that you could train at.
the Gim is one of Cold Steel's best swords from what I hear, but in my books that still doesn't place it very high. I've heard great things about Jin-Shi (link above in Sicheah's post) so if you want a gim or jian they are the first place I'd look
Celtic sword. . . you mean the Gen2? many of the Celtic Swords that were reviewed on the main site are no longer available, unless it has been updated and I missed it. I really don't know where I'd turn for a good Celtic sword as ther aren't very many and even those are not too exciting. it's unfortuneate but that's the truth of it.
ninjato . . . well if you like these (I do not) there is no better way to go than Hanwei. in fact anything other than a hanwei ninjato is very likely to be garbage. the Hanwei one is at least a well made sword and don't let what flashing steel says about it make you think it isn't a good cutter because it is straight. that is nonsense, the best cutting swords to come out of Europe (types XIII and X) can cut as well or better than any curved sword ever made Japanese or otherwise. there is so much more to what makes a good cutting sword than curved vs. straight that curved vs. straight really makes no difference.
what you need to do is decide what you want to do with your sword.
if you are going to train in one of those dojo then you should talk to the instructor and get what they want you to have or you are just wasting your money.
if you are going to train on your own, incorperating what you already know then that is an entirely different story and we should really know more about what you have studied.
if you just want to cut things and enjoy having a casual cutting sessions your choices are wide open.
for home defense any functional sword should do, the one you want to pick is the one you understand best. because while a wakizashi or gladius might be best for use in the halls and tight spaces of a home if you don't know how to use one you'd be better off with the weapon you do understand. sounds to me like right now your best home defense could be a heavy stick, baseball bat, asp (colapseable police baton), or maybe a big knife.
as for DH vs. TH when it comes to katana I always prefer DH. unless you are cutting things you shouldn't be the extra hardness of the edge being more brittle rarely becomes an issue but the better edge retention makes a big difference.
ok here's my short list (not that it's really short)
Chinese swords of any type: Jinshi first and last and always unless you want to enter the custom high-end market (scary price tags there mate)
Katana/wakizashi: for entry level sub $300 katana pick your favorite Hanwei model. every Hanwei I have seen is hands-down better than anything in it's price class in the sub $300 range anyway. if you want a DH go one of the practical series, if you want tough back yard TH cutter go for a raptor model. on this note there is ONE more contender: SwordNArmory but I don't have a good feel for where their price line falls with what quality yet, but I've seen some of their swords and they all looked fabulous and I personally know the guy who does the hilt wrappings and fitting up grades and the lady who does the research for their swords and they are both Top Quality people who will put out a great product for the price, of that I have no doubt. I'm just not as familiar with their swords yet but they are certainly showing great promise and worth a good solid look and maybe a call.
short swords (celtic, anthropomorophic, galdius, etc) Kris Cutlery first, Gen2 next, and avoid everything else until Valiant Armory brings out some new ones (avoid their old "classic series")
European swords: if you just want good backyard cutters go any Practical Line sword from Valiant Armory that trips your trigger, or step up to their signature line if you can spend a little more and want more variety. if you are dead set on practiceing traditional german/italian longsword then the Hanwei Tinker line longsword is your sword. if you want specialized performance but don't mind having to do just a little bit of touch-ups on your sword if it means you have the best moving and performing sword go for the HAnwei Tinker line, especially the EMSHS and bastard sword.
I know a guy who was in the army and saw action as an infatryman and he liked swords with short blades and long handles. he liked the Cheness Oniyuri a lot and there was another less-known sword brand that had a katana pretty much the same type that he liked as much if not better but I can't remember what it was.
can anyone remind me what that other "shinobi gatana" that Jonis reviewed was? was it a swordNArmory line sword? another good "short blade - long handle" sword is the Destiny Blade wakizashi. the hilt is longer than it should be for a real wakizashi making it more of a kokatana but from what I'm hearing from your post above on what sort of marital arts you know and have access to a kokatana/ long handled wakizashi may be just the thing for you AND they are well proportioned for home defense and CQB.
I would suggest you either contact SwordNArmory and ask what they can do for you in a kokatana/shinobigatana/long tsuka wakizashi or try out a Destiny Blade wakizashi. here's my review of the destiny blade / masurao wakizashi-kokat-thingy: /index.cgi?board=swordreviews&action=display&thread=11141
whew! did you read all that?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2009 7:28:15 GMT
or you know, if you want a kodachi you could always go with the SBG custom kodachi when it is open. I agree that you should spend some time getting to know your sticks before moving onto a real sword.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 18:41:34 GMT
I say, get them all, as budget allows, and try them out. Keep the one you love best and sell the rest.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 20:53:52 GMT
I second Tom on the Oniyuri I have one, and it would make a great close quarter battle sword. I think a Ko Katana is a great idea too Sorry to disagree with FlashingSteel about the baseball bat, a crowbar is many times better than a bat, and a sword is even better than a crowbar Nobody went to war with baseball bats, maces were the closest things, and they had all of those spikes on them
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 21:25:14 GMT
I don't agree, swordmonger- a bat can be used to hurt OR kill, but if you hit someone with a crowbar, unless you miss, you're probably just going to kill them.
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Post by djhere on Dec 14, 2009 22:12:02 GMT
I cant help but put in my 2 cents worth here although I might be to late.Get a bokken to practice with until you can sign up for professional training and then ask your instructor to advise you on what is suitable for your chosen style.Before you do anything else check out sword safety 101 here at sbg.It is a very valueble thread to all of us.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 22:38:16 GMT
I don't agree, swordmonger- a bat can be used to hurt OR kill, but if you hit someone with a crowbar, unless you miss, you're probably just going to kill them. I think most of us when finding ourselves in a close quarters battle with a home invader, are not interested in merely hurting the invader, but killing them in the quickest and most efficient manner possible, so given that scenario, a crowbar is definitely better at that than a bat. That said, one adrenaline-fueled bat swing to the skull is probably going to kill too. I like the crowbar due to the two pointy ends, giving it a destructive jab potential with the straighter end, plus the greater lethality with the pointy part of the curved end. Plus it won't break, like something made out of wood. If you have moral or legal issues with killing a home invader, then you better stick to body shots with that bat, or plan on using pepper spray, Tasers or stun guns. I have a friend in NY State who is strong enough to pick up one end of cars, or pick up one person and swing them to hit others of a group he is fighting. His weapon of choice to defend his home? A nine-iron I explained that how fragile that shaft is, and asked him if he even had a bat or a crowbar. He had neither He doesn't have swords or guns either I told him to go to a hardware store and buy a crowbar, or better yet, a double bladed ax. I told him most bad guys seeing a guy with a double bladed ax coming toward them would crap their pants and run ;D He asked me about a sledgehammer. I told him a sledgehammer would be way too slow for most people, but he might be one of the few people strong enough to rock a sledgehammer ;D It might terrify the bad guys too ;D Personally, I hope he gets the ax, especially one of those 3/4 size double bladed axes That would make a great home defense weapon, as long as the baddies didn't have guns His wife is the gun problem, she does want guns in the house, but he says he may sneak a shotgun in
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Post by ecovolo on Dec 14, 2009 22:46:00 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2009 0:56:18 GMT
Thanks for the responses guys! Very helpful and I am exploring all those swords and that information. However I wanted to just add that I am looking for a sword. I own a bat. I own a crowbar. They do not cut well and I have found that kata can get a little dangerous when I am training with my crowbar. I think I will try out different broomsticks while I research more swords. Thanks again!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2009 2:03:54 GMT
Just to point out... I don't like bats for any kind of self defense... but a lot of people do thats why I mentioned it... I think cane is the best self defense weapon but it requires training to use.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 15, 2009 2:12:43 GMT
coolness Hammy48, but hey please let us know what you finally choose and what you think of it once you get it. we love to hear about it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2009 18:40:49 GMT
I went on the Destiny Blade website and I really like their Wakizashi. I called the owner of the company and he was very helpful. Unfortunately their forge is focusing on the KoKatana this year and they were not planning on making more Wakizashis until the spring. Not only that but they are going to raise to the price to the $350-400 range. So my question is this... Is the Wakasahi (my favorite of all the swords mentioned so far) still going to be competitive in the $400 range? They are offering a Kokatana right now for only $350 that normally sells for $400. Perhaps a few of you guys could check out the website and tell me what you think of these two swords. It is a little out of my price range but they have been my favorites so far. I wish they still had the Wakizashi at $300 and in stock and then I think I would buy it today! I just wanted to narrow my search here... I think for now I am going to limit my sword options to the Wakizashi and the Kokatana. At least until I hear back from the custom Chinese sword maker Jin Shian (I think it was something like that). That being said... how does the destiny blade fair against some of these Wakizashi: www.swordsofdestiny.com/Wakizashi_s/41.htmTake a look at the Raptor, the three monkey, the golden oriole and maybe the great wave. Another consideration is that I may want to get a tanto companion somewhere down the road. The Destiny Blade website offers an identical companion to the Wakizashi and that is another appealing thing. One last thing: Bokken... Cold Steel sells a Wakazashi bokken... is it any good? I was thinking of getting that now. Is it better or worse than a broom handle?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2009 20:34:25 GMT
"I own a bat. I own a crowbar. They do not cut well and I have found that kata can get a little dangerous when I am training with my crowbar." LOL +1 to you ;D Between Wakisahi and Ko Katana, I like a Ko-Kat better since you have the option of turning on two handed power.
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