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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2009 0:40:52 GMT
Back before I discovered SBG I loved swords but as far as I knew they had no practical use and were only good for hanging on the wall. I bought a cheap Pakistani knock off of Aragorn's ranger sword on line and was disappointed when it arrived to find the blade was "springy" since (so far as I knew) any good sword should have a rock hard blade with no give to it at all. Now that I've learned a little more I'm curious about this sword. It's a stainless steel blade that appears to be well tempered. It will flex quite a bit and spring back true, a quality (I thought) stainless isn't supposed to have. Don't get me wrong I'm not planning on cutting with this thing or anything like that, I'm just curious...is it possible to make a decent sword blade out of stainless or is that just a pipe dream? And if it isn't possible, what might be some of the reasons this blade on this sword is unsuitable? (I'm figuring there's likely a welded on rat tail tang and what not, all sorts of reasons aside from the blade, no one needs to convince me not to cut with this sword, I'm just looking for enlightenment as to why this blade wouldn't be any good.) Let me strongly emphasize, I realize I'm asking an ignorant question, and I'm prepared to be "schooled", that's why the question, because I want to learn the answers.
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Avery
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Post by Avery on Nov 6, 2009 0:51:01 GMT
First off, there are no ignorant questions, just some condescending answers from time to time. Second, yeah, stainless can be made into a good sword,but I'll those better than I explain the metallurgy. You should be able to twist the pommel and unscrew it to see the tang, which I PROMISE you is poor. The biggest problem with these types of blades is the length. If not done right, a stainless blade over.....say 14 inches is too brittle and will snap. Add to this a welded rat tail or just extremely thin tang and you have a recipe for disaster.
But to answer your main question, yes stainless, if done correctly, can make a helluva blade. Again, I'll let others more knowledgeable chime in on the "how".
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2009 0:56:38 GMT
Thanks, I've been curious enough to try taking the thing apart but it's like it's glued together. I'm just assuming there's a welded on rat tail tang, I bought it for fifty dollars on eBay I'm not going to expect too much out of it and I'd rather err on the side of caution when it comes to sharp pointy things.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2009 1:49:56 GMT
Stainless can be somewhat flexible. I guarantee you that the blade is not heat treated though. Stainless can be heat treated but not the same way as high carbon steals.
Just because it can flex and return true does not mean it would stand up to impact.
Stainless is also a very poor material when it comes to holding an edge.
With that said, you can cut water bottles with a *short* stainless blade. Just don't expect to perform as well as tempered steel.
I've cut water bottles with a large knife made out of mild steel! That thing was soft to the point that it hardly held an edge at all.
Really, most of the stuff we do with our swords pales in comparison to what real swords were used for.
However, water bottles can be dangerous if you flub a cut. It poses little danger to a real sword but batting a heaver container of water across the yard could be all it would take to make a stainless blade snap in two.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Nov 6, 2009 18:15:59 GMT
You can harden and temper stainless, I think you're supposed to freeze it after hardening but before tempering to enhance toughness. Don't know much about it. If a blade is just stamped "stainless", it's probably made from the cheapest stainless available. If it says "440 stainless" rather than "440C stainless, it's probably 440A or 440B which is apparently pretty much useless. A $50 ebay sword that is flexible is probably just thin. A long sword should be stiff but resilient, not floppy. Also, in my opinion, anything under 1/4 inch thick at the strong is too thin for a long sword. Check to see how thick your wall-hanger is. As I said, it's likely flexibly just because it's too thin.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2009 19:04:17 GMT
Thanks, guys, for taking the time and trouble to answer my newbie question. It is a pretty thin blade so that could have a lot to do with it's flexibility. What little I had learned, just enough not to really know anything, was telling me this blade had qualities it shouldn't have. Thanks for helping me understand some of this.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2009 19:21:10 GMT
Slack- I have a Master Cutlery sword from the movie Eragon, the Brom sword- and while it is stamped stainless, it has the dimensions, balance and flexibility you'd look for in a cutter. For a wallhanger, it was surprisingly well-built...naturally, because its a movie wall hanger I haven't bothered trying to cut with it, but it feels like it would be good at it.
Hotspur or Jon Hopkins could tell you about good swords that are made using stainless steel- I can't recall the threads offhand but this discussion's been done before. Generally speaking, any stainless steel weapon you get off of eBay will not fall into the aforementioned category- they're meant to do one thing well, and that's hang on a wall.
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Post by Dan Davis on Nov 6, 2009 19:54:54 GMT
Not trying to be condescending...... Not a rant either.
Just trying to clear up a few misconceptions. Fellows, there are lots of different stainless alloys with all sorts of different properties. Let's not make too many generalizations about "stainless steel" since there are enough variations in the materials to fill an entire encyclopedia. Yes, you CAN harden and temper stainless steel alloys, but the methods used for hardening most all of them are exotic in the extreme and are not something you do in a coal forge. For instance, some alloys harden by hydrogen nitriding, some by copper precipitation, some by cyclic stress aging (like copper) and some simply harden from getting them hot.
Then again, some of them harden and temper EXACTLY like carbon steel.
Cryogenic treatment may help some alloys, won't make a bit of difference to others. The primary purpose is that around -300F chromium carbide molecules tend to fall apart, causing the chromium atoms to redistribute throughout the matrix as the blade warms back up. Since Chromium Carbide is a HUGE, gigantic, GRANDE molecule it creates stress points in the matrix which can cause stress fracture, so cryogenic treatment helps to get rid of these molecules which CAN make for a tougher blade. Most stainless alloys do not hold an edge well. Some of them (440V, CPM-V) hold an edge to the point of radical extremity. The difference between 440A, 440B, and 440C is the nominal carbon content which is .60, .80, and 1.0 respectively; In this regard they are comparable to AISI 1070, 1084, and 1095 respectively. This statement is directly akin to saying that 1070 and 1084 are pretty much useless (I doubt you would ever say that, but you get my point?). None of these steels are "useless" and any of them will respond properly if handled according to what they are.
Okay, some metallurgical facts about steel alloys which contain chromium content above 10% (which includes D2 and A2, which are NOT stainless alloys:
High-chromium alloys are far more susceptible to degraded austenite formation and retained austenite than non-chromium bearing steels. This means that the level of control needed by the smith is much greater and it is much easier to screw up. This reason alone is enough to cause any normal bladesmith to avoid making long blades from stainless, it is too much of a pain in the arse to control. So, you either don't do it, or you sweat/strain/curse a lot and end up tossing out most blades anyway, or you simply say "I don't give a shite if this fails and kills someone" and go along your merry way. I personally choose the first approach.
Second, high-chromium alloys are susceptible to what is called "chromium depletion stress cracking" which means that as the blade flexes over time the relatively HUGE chromium atoms migrate away from the points of flexion, which then cracks. In practical terms a stainless steel blade can and will fail with little or no deformation and with little or no warning. Your blade can last for years or it can snap the first time you swing it and there is no way to tell which is going to happen other than detailed destructive testing, after which it doesn't much matter, does it?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2009 19:55:21 GMT
I have several stainless swords that I did things with for years before I heard you were not supposed to do anything with them but hang them on the wall One of my best bottle cutters is my Samurai 3000 Katana, which sharpens up to one of the best edges I have seen . None of my stainless steel sword blades are flexible.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2009 20:02:52 GMT
Wow Dan, thanks for that encyclopedic post I think I will copy it to my computer for future reference ;D
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2009 20:06:39 GMT
Thanks for the metallurgy lesson Dan, I found it informative. I'm glad you pointed out the 'difference' between stainless and high carbon steel (since stainless has some element of carbon in it, I've noticed some more savvy sellers putting forth their wares as 'carbon steel' no distinction).
Swordmonger, I had the straight bladed equivalent, I guess the Ninja...pretty, but mine had an audible click in the handle and I didn't do much other than dry handle it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2009 20:09:35 GMT
Maybe I need to make a metallurgy bookmark folder? Thanks for the informative post Dan.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2009 20:35:55 GMT
+1 for that post Dan. Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2009 21:11:03 GMT
Thanks for the metallurgy lesson Dan, I found it informative. I'm glad you pointed out the 'difference' between stainless and high carbon steel (since stainless has some element of carbon in it, I've noticed some more savvy sellers putting forth their wares as 'carbon steel' no distinction). Swordmonger, I had the straight bladed equivalent, I guess the Ninja...pretty, but mine had an audible click in the handle and I didn't do much other than dry handle it. Could you have returned it for one that was put together better?
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Post by sparky on Nov 6, 2009 21:15:42 GMT
Yes, a civil stainless debate.
Dan thanks for that information, you made it easy for me to understand.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2009 21:17:26 GMT
swordmonger, I never bothered to find out...I bought mine at least 5 years ago or so...I still have it, too. lol
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2009 21:29:23 GMT
swordmonger, I never bothered to find out...I bought mine at least 5 years ago or so...I still have it, too. lol Well, at least you have an interesting wallhanger, I got a Punisher themed SLO, I could tell just be waving it around a little, this thing might break just slicing air, and the blade was very whippy, thankfully I paid like $26.00 for it, and it looks cool, but it will never be used for anything but an ornament, of if I ever decided to get a custom built to look like it, the smith could use it to get the same look
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Post by genocideseth on Nov 6, 2009 22:35:51 GMT
I had a stainless steel blade that I chopped up planks of wood with. Dumb, yes, but at the time I did not know any better. It had a bad temper and had next to no flex, but it was tough!
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Avery
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Post by Avery on Nov 6, 2009 22:48:10 GMT
Not trying to be condescending...... Not a rant either. Dan, your post was certainly not condescending. As others have said, thank you for the informative post, put into terms lay-folks like me can understand. Yet another reason why this forum continues to flourish while other (ahem) more technical forums seem to be whithering. Thank you, sir, for your insight.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Nov 6, 2009 23:21:34 GMT
Dan, I too appreciate your informative post but I have to ask: since A2 and D2 are also High Chromium steels it would seem that they to may suffer from chromium depletion stress cracking is this true? I used to own a D2 sword that was hand made by Silver Castle Armory and seemed to be a very sturdy sword, would you say that ANY sword made of D2 or A2 (including my old Silver Castle) is unreliable as a cutting sword due to susseptability to chromium depletion and should be treated as if it were Stainless?
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