Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2009 7:28:12 GMT
Hi. I have just bought a Musashi Tenga Katana, ;D Its my first purchase, and I am 'rather pleased' with my first buy, However, I could do with a bit of help judging it.
It has a lovely REAL Hamon (main reason for buying that particular sword). However the Hamon has a mirror finish, in fact it is the shiniest part of the blade! Is this normal for a hamon? It is also of Honsanmai forging technique, ie. three different steels in the one blade.
The samegawa wrap is real also but a dullish white color. Is this good or not for a $300 sword?
The Hamon has a lovely wavy pattern to it and a slightly milky haze on the border, where it goes up to join the side of the blade. Ji?
My main question again, has anyone else got a sword where the Hamon is shinier than the rest of the blade, and is this normal for a clay tempered blade? Thanx in advance....
PS. The Hamon on one side of the blade follows and is near identical to the Hamon on the other side.... Normal?
|
|
|
Post by kidcasanova on Nov 1, 2009 7:59:09 GMT
From what I understand, the hamon area (not familiar with the proper term) is usually more polished because the metal is harder. Though admittedly I may be mixing this up with the reason why acid etching creates the same effect.
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Nov 1, 2009 14:37:28 GMT
Traditionally the hamon would be polished with different stones than the rest of the blade which would leave it a milky white color. However, modern steels take differently to these things than tamahagane so depending on the polish method, hamon can be very different. I've seen a lot of pictures on various sites of hamon that are shinier and more reflective than the rest of the blade. Sort of kills the look for me, personally, but it's ultimately personal. I've seen more still where the "hamon" is no more than a line that wiggles its way across the blade somewhere between the edge and the shinogi; the polish level of the hamon itself and the rest of the blade being exactly the same. It could well be how the harder metal reacts to however they enhance the hamon, in fact I would say this is quite likely the case. Oh, and as to the uniformity/symmetry/whatever between sides, well, in some cases this is actually ideal...it is very difficult to make the hamon identical on both sides, and being able to do so is very much an admirable trait. Few old smiths could pull it off, even. Though in this case, I'd wager the claw was applied with some sort of...for lack of a better word, stencil. Likely a pattern involved somehow, though even then depending how the blade was forged and so forth there may be some variation between sides. Pictures would be nice, either way.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2009 16:45:12 GMT
It's a result of non-traditional etching and polishing. I have several swords like you describe, with a milky ji and a mirror hamon. A traditional hamon as we know it is the result of hadori polishing. The hadori polishing is done to reveal the hada and the hamon. What a sword looks like before and after hadori you can check out here: www.nihontoantiques.com/polishing,%20step%20by%20step.htm So your sword probably looked something like the stone polished in the page above before it's etched and fine grit polished. I've heard that an acid etch will eat the harder metal before the soft, but from what I've seen the opposite is the case. The acid will go deeper into the soft area than the hamon and produce a milky area. The acid seems to attack the hamon outline more than the hamon itself too, but since the crystals on the outline are smaller than the molecules of the softer steel it will appear as a bright line and bright clouds.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2009 19:27:16 GMT
from my experiance(very limited) the hamon can reach a better polish due to the crystal structure(martensite) softer steel has a diffrent/looser structure. the hamon is the transition. with etching, i have come too find that it gets complicated....here is my therory, completly hardened steel that has not been tempered will resist the etch(sorry mark, you were right.) but once you start getting into tempered steel it looses its resistance to an etch. tempered martensite will etch to a gold/white. different hardness has a diffrent rate for etch. my example is... 60hrc is going to etch at a diffrent rate(diffrent shade than a 55hrc hamon.. just my 2 pennys. i could be wrong. abghari828- sorry for the spelling
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2009 20:46:01 GMT
Hi guys, Thanks so far for all your comments so far. Photos will follow within the next few days....
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2009 21:44:24 GMT
I have the same sword (though with different furniture) and have noticed this as well.
Of the three swords in this series with different furniture, there is some confusion as to whether or not it has laminated construction. Some of the "certificates" say that it has honsanmai construction, and some kobuse depending on where you purchase from. The blade is forge folded, showing a very subtle grain. I suspect that due to translation errors, the blade is folded, not laminated.
I'm thinking that the reason for the reverse polish is to bring out the grain on the shinogi, as it is almost invisible on the Ji and the hamon unless the blade is completely clean of oil.
|
|
|
Post by Dan Davis on Nov 3, 2009 1:06:38 GMT
More likely is that the polish is unfinished. Either etching or traditional sashikomi polish will leave the ji much duller and matte than the ha but a hadori/kesho polish (seen most often) is finished up by slowly and forcibly closing the grain of the ji and burnishing the steel, using various steel needles and a lot of time and effort. Look here for more info and a lot of good pics covering the various types of polishing: www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/togi.htmlwww.nihontoantiques.com/polishing,%20step%20by%20step.htm
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2009 6:16:36 GMT
Maybe I'm missing something here but this is a $300 katana??? No disrespect for the blade but does anyone actually think that this was polished using stones? My guess is a much more modern method would be used in that price range so I would not expect the polish to resemble anything traditional.
|
|
|
Post by Dan Davis on Nov 3, 2009 15:22:49 GMT
Well, you might think that but the fact is a lot of the swords coming out of small (and large) factories in China ARE polished by hand using stones.
The polish they generally provide is what we call a "foundation" or "working" polish though, not a complete or "art" polish.
|
|