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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 11:29:10 GMT
As my last few posts have indicated, I've recently purchased a few new blades of differing styles. I've noticed, even though all of my recent purchases come from Hanwei, the difference in sharpness of the blades is rather pronounced. Allow me to be very specific, I've a Pk that is more than willing to cut through anything that I brush against it, or swing it at, yet the other two blades I've just acquired exhibit a reluctance to perform to even half the standard that the PK shows. These other blades are the Hanwei William Marshal sword, and the Dark Sentinel. I'm assuming at this point that the William Marshal blade is a mono tempered blade at a HRC of 52 as the catalog suggests, and while it does have something of an edge, it is far from sharp enough, in my opinion (At the time of this writing I've not used it upon any targets, but merely performed a "does it slice a piece of paper like my Wakasahi PK did if I dragged it across the blade test.) Now my question is, how can I sharpen the blade enough to use it against any real targets? I've heard recently that blade sharping on the Katana is done through the exercise of polishing the blade, and while I'm willing to spend a few dollars on a polishing kit, I'm fairly certain that sharpening a European blade is done in a somewhat different manner. Or, on the other hand I could be completely wrong, and the same technique could be easily utilized to create a good cutting edge on my Marshall blade. On the other hand, the Dark Sentinel is a complete mystery to me on the hardness of the steel, as nothing in Cas Iberia's catalog even remotely indicates the rating of the steel it is made of. To be blunt, what is the best manner to sharpen the William Marshal sword, and I'll by default use the same technique to create a better edge on the Dark Sentinel. The edge on the Marshal sword, while certainly there, is weak enough to allow me to run the edge blade across the palm of my hand in its entirety without leaving a single mark. (don't ask. It involves a bit of idiocy and a great deal of curiosity. There is a reason why the cat is dead.) I need to sharpen this blade enough to use as a effective cutting tool, it need not be sharp enough to create the damage evidenced above, and it should be able to...um, create a great deal of upset if the above experiment was recreated.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 21:45:03 GMT
There are two paths in this post. If you wish to remain respectful of your blade and do the "right thing" then please follow step 1. If you don't care about it, you just want it sharp, then please follow step 2. This isn't directed toward the OP, this is directed toward anyone looking to sharpen a katana. 1. You do not sharpen a katana, you "polish" it. Actually, you send it to an expert or master polisher and they do it for a small fee. (depending on the sword, our low level beaters won't be accepted by them) Polishing a katana is extremely involved. It takes years of study followed by years of apprenticeship under a master, and then further years of practice, before it can be done correctly. If you wish to learn more then you need to get this book. 2. If you just want to sharpen your katana and you don't care about authenticity then you need to acquire a whetstone of some sort or a belt grinder or a table grinder. Then you just apply a secondary bevel. Follow this guide on knife sharpening, but think in bigger terms. Please note that this is the absolutely "wrong" way of sharpening a katana. L.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 22:01:43 GMT
Ok, that's all good information, however what I need to sharpen is not a Katana, but a broadsword. Would the same hold true in that case?
Red John
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 22:39:57 GMT
Ok, that's all good information, however what I need to sharpen is not a Katana, but a broadsword. Would the same hold true in that case? Red John My bad, I was thinking of katanas when I posted. The mind wanders... Anyway, it all depends. A lot of european broadswords had a secondary bevel because troops would sharpen their blade in the field. Not only that, but maintaining a primary bevelled edge is a very complicated task and takes a lot of training, so the secondary bevel usually wins on all counts. If you do not know what a secondary bevel is then consult this thread here. Your first step is determining whether or not your blade has a secondary bevel. If it does then you would do best to consult someone else (I have never sharpened a european sword, but I have sharpened knives, so I will explain on that account). If it's a primary bevel, which it shouldn't be, then let us know and we'll cross that bridge. How I would sharpen it: 1. What was the original blade's geometry? 2. What is the blade going to be used for (i.e. what will it be cutting?) With the answers to these two questions in mind I would sharpen it accordingly. It is important to follow the original blade geometry so you don't take off too much metal, or mess with the blade's intended design. The smith usually has a good idea about what the most effective shape would be for the blade he is making, so it's a good idea to follow his work. Your first task is to acquire a whetstone. The cheapest route would be going to Wal-Mart and asking someone in sporting goods for an oil stone or sharpening stone for knives. I suggest going to a blade retailer in town. You can find blade specialists at important local pawn-n-gun stores (say "Pawn-n-Gun" out loud. The ones that pop into your head that are local will be the ones to go to. The little "no-name" stores aren't worth the effort). This is very simple. Go inside, tell the clerk you want to sharpen a sword. If they have a blade specialist on hand then they'll send you to him/her. Tell them what kind of steel it is and explain what it's going to be used for. They'll help you pick out a good stone. If you can't find a knife specialist then you can post a picture, tell us the steel type, and what it's going to be used for and we'll help. Instead of posting a picture you could just explain the blade geometry. Once you have the stone in hand there are basically two ways to go about this. The first, and probably best, would be to (this is after you prep the stone, some need to be soaked for 24 hours, some just need a bit of spit) lay the blade across your lap while you sit down and run the stone down the blade. This where the blade geometry and purpose of the blade are important. You'll need to know what angle to lay the blade against the stone and what kind of motion to move the blade. The one I would do would be the second method. Place your stone on a mount and take the blade in hand. Hold it in your finger tips and work on each little bit of the blade at a time. This is much more time consuming, but safer and more accurate. Let us know. L.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2006 4:41:14 GMT
Ok, I had a good look at the sword, and there does not appear to be a secondary bevel, it's a very clean line to the edge. This is the best photo I have of the blade, it is a Hanwei William Marshal, HRC52. We intend to use the blade on more or less the same targets as my Katana, tatami mats mostly, but some milk jugs and pool noodles may make a brief appearance. Red John
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2006 5:18:12 GMT
Ok, I had a good look at the sword, and there does not appear to be a secondary bevel, it's a very clean line to the edge. This is the best photo I have of the blade, it is a Hanwei William Marshal, HRC52. <snip> We intend to use the blade on more or less the same targets as my Katana, tatami mats mostly, but some milk jugs and pool noodles may make a brief appearance. Red John Really someone else needs to post their recommendation here, as I have little experience with sharpening blades of this type. If it's a primary bevel then you should probably stick with the smith's design and keep it that way. If you want to put a secondary bevel on it then you'll need to get a coarse whetstone (I'll recommend one in the morning, it's late here) to help reshape the blade. More in the morning. L.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2006 5:41:45 GMT
If you've got a steady hand and are patient you can use sandpaper.
Start with 300-400 grit or so, and very carfully lay it across the edge, and slide it from base to tip. Try not to change the angle you hold it, or move it laterally across the blade, that'll scratch it, damage the edge, and you could slice your fingers up pretty bad. Be firm and quick, but not too speedy. Repeat on both sides of both edges a hundred or so times each, then upgrade to 800 grit paper. Repeat and upgrade to successively higher grits until you gain the desired sharpness.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2006 5:42:21 GMT
I forgot to mention that if you do that properly it won't put on a secondary bevel, but will maintain your rolled edge.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2006 14:31:29 GMT
Interesting, I'd no clue that this would be such a difficult undertaking. I am however, very glad I thought to inquire amongst you all before simply going at it with a wet stone or something. The wealth of knowledge here is really quite impressive. I see I've not only a great deal more to learn about swords in general, but in the specifics of caring for many different types of blades. So as of right now, it seems that my best bet for sharpening the blade is to actually attempt to polish a better edge onto the blade rather than to actually sharpen it as I would be used to doing to say, a knife. This is a mildly frightening exersize as I've never done anything like this before, and I would really hate to do something irrevocable to the blade. Hmm. Thank you both for the help, it is appreciated.
Red John
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2006 14:41:56 GMT
Ah, I'm curious however, I do have a rather cheap Roman Gladius that is made from what I'm guessing is a Stainless Steel of some sort, if I were to practice on this blade before going at it on my William Marshal would that give me at least an idea of what to expect? The Gladius has no edge at all, and I'm not particularly concerned if I do damage to it. If I were to use this a practice piece would it help me to at least get the idea down? Or is the difference in material enough to make it a useless exercise?
Red John
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2006 18:27:44 GMT
Putting an edge on something with no edge at all to begin with is a long process best started with a good file.
After that, it depends on the specific stainless and how it's heat-treated as to how similar it will respond to sharpening/polishing compared to a william marshall.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2006 15:14:15 GMT
I agree with Adam on the topic of the Gladius. (I also agree with him on the topic of the sandpaper, good going!)
Putting an egde on something with no edge is a completely different under-taking. You'll first start with a coarse grit sandpaper/whetstone/file and begin to shape your bevels and such. During this step you'll be removing quite a lot of material from the blade and if you don't know what you're doing and about the importance of geometry then you're bound to mess it up permanently.
The second step would be using a medium grit item to hone an edge on there. This step also removes a lot of material and you can still mess up your blade and the previous work you just did quite fast.
The last step would be using finer grit progressively (depending on your medium grit you'd start with 800-1000, then move up a grade, say about 1200, then again) until you are happy with the final product. The fine grit polishes the blade, removing any scratch marks from your previous work with coarser grit while simultaneously touching up the edge until it's razor-sharp. You do this first moving the grit one way (800 long-ways), then another (1000 width-ways), then repeat (1200 long-ways), etc. etc.
If your blades are high-carbon then you can etch them, even if there is no hamon to bring out, to provide your own designs and also to remove any other unsightly scratches. This is quite involved and is not recommended until you really get the hang of sharpening to begin with.
For your purposes you'd just start with a medium-fine grit and then work up from there.
L.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2006 1:36:22 GMT
Another consideration before doing anything too drastic is the different uses of the katana vs. the western sword. I will expand on something recently mentioned in another thread. The katana created wounds by slicing into flesh. As such, it required a very keen edge. Most medieval western swords created wounds through a shearing, cleaving, or "hacking" motion, essentially impacting and then splitting the flesh. In this case, I believe that a western sword can be made too sharp. It would seem to me that a blade that primarily slices through targets can have a sharper edge, whereas, blades that are used for cleaving would very easily chip or roll (depending on the hardness of the edge) under impact with the target, if made equally sharp. My personal preference for my own western cutting swords is that they have an edge (whether appleseed or secondary bevel) that is straight and clean (no flat spots, bends, etc.) but not razor sharp. What I do is maintain my edges (using a combo of buther's steel, arkansas stones, and DMT diamond stones) so that, if I run the edge down my arm, it will lightly grab the hairs, but won't actually shave them off. Another test is to rub your finger across (NOT along) the edge at 90 degrees and see whether the edge will grab your finger or just slide smoothly over it. If it grabs, than it's sharp enough. I've found that this level of sharpness is perfectly suitable for cutting just about any target I want, and it is more durable and longer lasting than a "razor sharp" (and, consequently, thinner) edge.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2006 3:29:00 GMT
Another consideration before doing anything too drastic is the different uses of the katana vs. the western sword. I will expand on something recently mentioned in another thread. The katana created wounds by slicing into flesh. As such, it required a very keen edge. Most medieval western swords created wounds through a shearing, cleaving, or "hacking" motion, essentially impacting and then splitting the flesh. In this case, I believe that a western sword can be made too sharp. It would seem to me that a blade that primarily slices through targets can have a sharper edge, whereas, blades that are used for cleaving would very easily chip or roll (depending on the hardness of the edge) under impact with the target, if made equally sharp. My personal preference for my own western cutting swords is that they have an edge (whether appleseed or secondary bevel) that is straight and clean (no flat spots, bends, etc.) but not razor sharp. What I do is maintain my edges (using a combo of buther's steel, arkansas stones, and DMT diamond stones) so that, if I run the edge down my arm, it will lightly grab the hairs, but won't actually shave them off. Another test is to rub your finger across (NOT along) the edge at 90 degrees and see whether the edge will grab your finger or just slide smoothly over it. If it grabs, than it's sharp enough. I've found that this level of sharpness is perfectly suitable for cutting just about any target I want, and it is more durable and longer lasting than a "razor sharp" (and, consequently, thinner) edge. You are correct sir, thank you for pointing that out! (exalt) A katana displays it's sharpness by pushing or pulling against it's target, thus slicing it. A western sword usually slams into the opponent's flesh and cleaves it's way through the target. If you sharpen your western sword too much it'll just dull quicker. It's important to focus on giving it a good, solid edge and keeping it that way. (as opposed to focusing on a razor-sharp edge) L.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2006 4:22:14 GMT
In both German and Italian manuscripts, it depicts slicing as one of 3 ways to wound some one with a sword.
Japanese swords are curved because a curved blade presents slightly less surface area to the target by having the blade 'curve' away from the spot of impact(the same principle as a sword's tip actually).
To say that european swords just 'slam' into targets and wedge their way in deep is, I think, a bit of an overgeneralization. Europeans used their hips to drive their blade in deeper or draw it back slightly to facilitate a cleaner cut, just as the japanese did.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2006 4:44:44 GMT
To say that european swords just 'slam' into targets and wedge their way in deep is, I think, a bit of an overgeneralization. True enough. You can certainly slice and slash with a European sword. I made the generalization of "Japanese swords slice, while European swords cleave" just to point out the different edge requirements for each. Still, there's no question that Japanese swords excel at drawing and slicing, while Euro swords (of the medieval period) were better suited to shearing or cleaving blows. This doesn't mean that each type of sword can't perform the other type of cut, rather that they weren't necessarily optimized for them.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2006 15:33:20 GMT
Well, as of this time, I've decided against sharping the Marshal, after reading the advice here, as well as from the blade shop where I purchased the sword it seems it's better to leave well enough alone. We'll see if I feel any different after my wife has used it a couple of times on different targets, and I'll let you all know how it performs. Thanks to everybody for their words of wisdom.
Red John
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