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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2009 18:43:09 GMT
Did anyone ever try this - cutting stuff (not stabbing or thrusting) with bayonet affixed to a rifle ? The reason this topic came up because I watch History Chanel "Lock 'n load " episode about sword , bow and bayonet and in the last segment the gunny said that edge weapons are still with us in the form of bayonet . Moreover, I read the old military training manual about M4 bayonet for the M1 carbine and they stated that to compensate for the lack of reach ,M1 carbine user should use bayonet to slash and cut at the enemy instead of thrusting .
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Post by randomnobody on Oct 15, 2009 18:48:05 GMT
There are some bayonets that were designed to be more cut-oriented. I imagine their use on the rifle to be similar to a halberd or pole axe of some level...maybe a hewing spear...but a great many bayonets were also thrust-only and wouldn't cut butter if you hit it really hard.
Never tried it myself, but have often toyed with the idea of picking up a replica this-gun and this-bayonet and testing waters, though I doubt my neighbors would approve...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2009 18:56:34 GMT
You can do a pretty good slash with both the M7 and M9 bayonets (the ones I used in my enlistment). In boot camp, the targets were tires mounted on poles, and we used to slash the hell out of them, shredding them to oblivion. The bayonet would slash right though the rubber and belting, so it's safe to say that it would do the same with a human. The effect is about the slashing with a short spear/glaive, enough to inflict really good cuts. In training, both cuts, thrusts, and buttstrokes are taught - in case the weapon is inoperable or out of ammo. In essence, you turn your rifle into a short polearm.
Bayonet was still part of military training into the late 1990s, but I recall some of the newer soldiers saying that it is not taught anymore (soldiers that graduated BCT in 2007-2008). This is due to a change of our primary weapon platform - from the 20" bbl M16 to the 16" bbl M4. I know that on my two most recent deployments, the M7/M9 bayonet was not issued because it does not fit on the M4 rifle without a lug extension/adaptor.
They still make great field knives though if you can find one. ;D
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Post by alvin on Oct 15, 2009 18:57:05 GMT
I've never tried to actually cut with a bayonet mounted on a rifle, but I believe that the combination can be very effective. During my Army Basic Training back in the olden days - over 40 years ago now - I trained with the bayonet mounted on the M-14 rifle. Can't remember all the attacks, but there were several using cuts, as well as thrusts and some damned scary butt strikes. I always believed that a bayonet mounted on a real rifle, of which the M-14 was the last U.S. model, could definitely "do a job" on an enemy at close quarters.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2009 19:02:57 GMT
A bayonet by itself can do the job...I had no idea there were tactics involved, you rarely hear about such. Or maybe I just haven't been listening.
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Post by randomnobody on Oct 15, 2009 19:25:37 GMT
I remember playing the old Army Men games on the original Playstation console...a number of 'em had bayonets as weapons and even included them in the training levels. Of course, all they did was walk up to something and jab it in with an upward-curving, well, jab. Starting at what I'd estimate to be about waist-level, just "lifting" the barrel up into the whatever-it-was. Always thought there should be more to it than that. I do remember watching a lot of old movies with bayonet training. Those poor sandbags. Here's an old-school go covering stance and comparing bayonet fighting to boxing; not bad for its age: I'm having a ball over on YouTube with my search for "bayonet training." You fellas should join me, post your favorites if you find good ones.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2009 19:53:26 GMT
A bayonet by itself can do the job...I had no idea there were tactics involved, you rarely hear about such. Or maybe I just haven't been listening. There's actually quite a bit to using a bayonet. There's training manuals out there dedicated to using a rifle as a melee weapon with the bayonet mounted, and without the bayonet as well. Like a sword, the barrell isn't the only part of the gun that's a weapon.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2009 23:39:18 GMT
As of 2001, bayonet training had pretty much fallen by the wayside. It was still taught over the course of 2 days, culminating with the bayonet course and Pugil Stick fighting. But there was no real emphasis on it.
These days bayonet training is pretty much Only done in combat arms advanced combat courses, and mostly as just a knife rather than fixed on the rifle. But I didn't know that it didn't fit on the M-4. It probably doesn't fit on the M16-A4, either. That would explain why the combat ops guys are carrying fighting knives and tactical swords with them and not fixing bayonets before clearing a building.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2009 4:38:36 GMT
The British recently did a bayonet charge as a response to an ambush.
Bayonets are a nifty weapon, coming in all sorts of shapes and sizes. I want to get a hold of a M1903 bayonet; if I do, I'll make a cutting demo video for you guys.
M.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2009 4:08:46 GMT
Does anyone actually try that with plastic bottle ? The sharpest bayonet I have is M4 but I can not even use it to open the letter and the Camilus customer service lady even told me that it was suppose to be like that. On the contrary , my PX K-bar would slice bottle in half if the edge is sharp. I suppose by nature of the bayonet it is not suppose to be razor sharp ,am I correct on this ? When I was in the service during 90's I never issued the bayonet but I had to sign the reciept after discharge ( It was still brand new with green scabbard and handle ) . I did had perfect score on the bayonet training correspondence course (I guess that is a new army for you -we do bayonet training by mail )
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2009 4:10:21 GMT
I remember playing the old Army Men games on the original Playstation console...a number of 'em had bayonets as weapons and even included them in the training levels. Of course, all they did was walk up to something and jab it in with an upward-curving, well, jab. Starting at what I'd estimate to be about waist-level, just "lifting" the barrel up into the whatever-it-was. Always thought there should be more to it than that. I do remember watching a lot of old movies with bayonet training. Those poor sandbags. Here's an old-school go covering stance and comparing bayonet fighting to boxing; not bad for its age: I'm having a ball over on YouTube with my search for "bayonet training." You fellas should join me, post your favorites if you find good ones. Nice video , Did you come across any Jukendo by Imperial Japanese army? that would be awsome , I will do the search now
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2009 22:23:09 GMT
I am willing to believe I just may not know enough about this, but I would much rather have a Ko-Katana or an Oniyuri once the bullets ran out than a rifle with a bayonet attached Besides, wouldn't the forces on the rifle barrel totally screw up your zero once you had bullets to put in it again
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2009 1:26:25 GMT
Back in '96 I did go through bayonet training for the US Army as part of BCT, mine was four days with pugil sticks on day four and the bayonet course on a separate day later in BCT (post administration day was the cause of the delay). However, once I got to my unit I was assigned an M240 attached to my M16A2 so I could never affix a bayonet. I guess they figured the mechanics would just break down a fight with our wrenches. I got issued a bayonet (M9 I think, can't quite remember) on a couple of occasions but every one our Armorer handed me was duller than a rubber butter knife. I guess he figured I was better at sharpening knives than he was. It's why I carried a Spyderco Endura most of my enlistment.
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Post by randomnobody on Oct 22, 2009 16:45:23 GMT
Nice video , Did you come across any Jukendo by Imperial Japanese army? that would be awsome , I will do the search now I thought the video was neat. Jukendo? That's a new term for me. I guess it stems from "gun sword" aka bayonet? I'll look into that later. I am willing to believe I just may not know enough about this, but I would much rather have a Ko-Katana or an Oniyuri once the bullets ran out than a rifle with a bayonet attached Besides, wouldn't the forces on the rifle barrel totally screw up your zero once you had bullets to put in it again Why a ko-kat? I'd rather have a knife. Ideally on a long stick, but removable if I please. ...Oh, hey! I'm surprised to hear how dull people's bayonets were... I figure even the military knows knives work better when sharp. Granted, the bayonet's "offical" use and purpose was more for the pokey-stabby end, but did they issue "field knives" or what have you otherwise? Oh well, doesn't take much to sharpen a knife, anyway...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2009 22:23:31 GMT
Jukendo is bayonet fencing.
M.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2009 23:30:23 GMT
Nice video , Did you come across any Jukendo by Imperial Japanese army? that would be awsome , I will do the search now I thought the video was neat. Jukendo? That's a new term for me. I guess it stems from "gun sword" aka bayonet? I'll look into that later. I am willing to believe I just may not know enough about this, but I would much rather have a Ko-Katana or an Oniyuri once the bullets ran out than a rifle with a bayonet attached Besides, wouldn't the forces on the rifle barrel totally screw up your zero once you had bullets to put in it again Why a ko-kat? I'd rather have a knife. Ideally on a long stick, but removable if I please. ...Oh, hey! I'm surprised to hear how dull people's bayonets were... I figure even the military knows knives work better when sharp. Granted, the bayonet's "offical" use and purpose was more for the pokey-stabby end, but did they issue "field knives" or what have you otherwise? Oh well, doesn't take much to sharpen a knife, anyway... Field Knives? Not during my enlistment, they had actually eliminated the standard pocket knife from the mechanic's toolbox (I had been an issue item for a long time) when I was in. We didn't even have bayonets on a regular basis when I was deployed in Bosnia-Herezegovinia. How, it usually works, at least in the Army, is this: you have an assigned rifle that is kept in the unit armory, and only drawn out when needed (field maneuvers, qualifying range, deployed to a combat zone, etc...) While the individual soldier does very basic maintenance and cleaning on the weapons with the firearm being the priority, the unit armorer is supposed to take care of the rest. While many NCO's thoroughly inspect rifles, nobody really gives a d*** about the bayonet. In five years of active duty I never had, nor actually was required to (once I had gained enough rank) inspect a dang bayonet. Now, soldiers, at least while I was in, were allowed to carry personal knives, and many, myself included chose to do so. During my five years I carried both a Gerber Guardian Backup boot knife, and my "work knife" which was a Spyderco Endura with a serrated blade (it would cut through vehicle wiring). Now, i was enlisted in the US Army from 1996-2001 so Taran does have more recent information than I do, but that was how it worked in my day.
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Post by randomnobody on Oct 23, 2009 0:24:16 GMT
I guess the army's just abandoned the poor old bayonet. Got a bad feeling about that'n, though...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2009 1:41:37 GMT
I guess the army's just abandoned the poor old bayonet. Got a bad feeling about that'n, though... If your bayonet doesn't fit on your rifle...
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