|
Post by Kilted Cossack on Oct 6, 2009 14:20:10 GMT
Gents:
I have a perhaps silly question. Why don't more swords employ a "Messer" style tang?
My understanding is as follows. For many, many styles of sword, the tang is significantly narrower than the blade. Obviously, for some of the cleavers out there, this only makes sense. (A 2" wide tang would only be grippable by Mongo.) But an awful lot of sword blades seem, to my uneducated eyes, to be verging on the dread "rat tail" style of tang.
Sitting here in the modern world, I find myself wondering why the Messer style of tang wasn't more widely used? That is, a full tang, with grippystockhandlethingies of the scale type.
Note: "Grippystockhandlething" is a term of art from a sixgun board I used to frequent, adopted to resolve the question "Is it a grip, or is it a stock?" I use it here simply as an homage to days gone by.
I'm not so foolish as to think there was no reason for this style of tang and grip construction; I'm just foolish enough not to understand the reason.
Nodes of vibration? A relative scarcity of iron or steel? History and tradition?
Many thanks in advance for assistance in furthering my education!
|
|
|
Post by ShooterMike on Oct 6, 2009 14:58:38 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2009 15:47:24 GMT
I think I might have a clue. The short answer is that it is harder to make.
All these super thin tangs are made that way because then all the company has to do is drill a whole through the handle and slap it on there.
I've done a little knife making before, and believe me, the smaller the tang the easier the hilting job. If a company wanted to do a messer style tang they would have to rework their pattern of production. It would also make securing the guard a good bit more difficult. I think this is probably a major reason.
So in a nutshel, it would be harder and thus more expensive.
-Just what I'm thinking on the subject
|
|
|
Post by ShooterMike on Oct 6, 2009 17:15:20 GMT
I think I might have a clue. The short answer is that it is harder to make. All these super thin tangs are made that way because then all the company has to do is drill a whole through the handle and slap it on there.... Just my observations, but... ...that's not how they seem to do the cores. All the cores on functional swords have oval or square holes through them. They are almost all made in two pieces, then glued together. They have to have at least one side routered out to fit the tang. It seems like it would be no more work, maybe even less work, to make them as tang slabs, then grind the whole assembly to shape?
|
|
|
Post by YlliwCir on Oct 6, 2009 18:32:18 GMT
I think I might have a clue. The short answer is that it is harder to make. All these super thin tangs are made that way because then all the company has to do is drill a whole through the handle and slap it on there.... Just my observations, but... ...that's not how they seem to do the cores. All the cores on functional swords have oval or square holes through them. They are almost all made in two pieces, then glued together. They have to have at least one side routered out to fit the tang. It seems like it would be no more work, maybe even less work, to make them as tang slabs, then grind the whole assembly to shape? Just going by what I've seen, I agree with Mike. I've got a couple super cheap katana type with the slab type construction, I can take a picture but it would just hurt your eyes. I've seen pictures of this type on some super cheap euro pieces of crap too. I wasn't going to mention this out of embarassment but it may have some bearing on why this is not used, or not. ;D The other day when me and Mark were doing some cutting, I was using my Rittersteel kat which has this type hilt (slab). I took a particularly hard swing at a thicker bottle and the sword slipped from my hand (luckily it went point first into the yard), but it gave me pause I tell ya. First time I've lost a blade like that. Anyhoo I'm thinking the wood grip was just slippery. May or may not be a reason for not using this type grip.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2009 21:56:53 GMT
You guys have a lot more experience so you're probably right. I was mostly thinking of windless. I still think it would make it more difficult to secure a guard on a slab tang.
I have seen several stainless "katanas" made like this but there always seem to be gaps around the tsuba. And a loose tsuba is far less noticeably than a loose cross guard.
Your probably right in that the grip itself would be fairly easy to make but I think it might make the guard a little more difficult.
I do wish there were more swords like this around though.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2009 22:54:29 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Kilted Cossack on Oct 6, 2009 23:50:56 GMT
Something's gone all fon-key and I cannot find that thread. Which subforum is it under?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2009 0:54:00 GMT
Neither is really trickier than the other to make really, and they both take about the same time to complete.
Most of my euro style swords are done this way, except I do not use pins and put chord over my wood slabs. The profile of my handle is the profile of my tang plus the little bit that chord widens things. The difference really isn't how the wood is put on but how the guard and pommel are put on. Neither is really stronger than the other either, the "full tang" style like with messers the metal of the handle might be wider, but it has holes in it, the through tang might not have holes but it is thinner width wise. I imagine you don't see one more than the other because of aesthetics and styling in different eras, and most likely through tangs are more comfortable on the hand than most messer style mounts look, with knarly stag or knarly wood.
|
|
|
Post by Kilted Cossack on Oct 7, 2009 1:22:15 GMT
Thanks, Sam. (Is it too forward to call you Sam?) I was hoping an actual honest Injun swordsmith would chime in.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2009 1:27:41 GMT
No, it's my name
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2009 3:47:41 GMT
I like messers a whole bunch, if I had the money I would be all over the Albion Soldat (or maybe their Meister) and their Knecht like a fat kid on a cupcake
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2009 4:08:22 GMT
Well take a langes messer for instance, why is it you never see one (decently made) on the market for sub 400US ... The answer is simple: They are not enough models like this in demand for a company to warrant doing a production run of them, therefore the price never drops. There are alot of swords I would love to see made and have in my personal collection (IE, the Thorpe Falcion), but I'd have to pay a custom manufacturer to make them for me. We are lucky that we have the few messers on the market that we do have. We can always hope for more someday, especially budget priced ones! ;D Some Langes Messer eye candy for you...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2009 4:35:11 GMT
Now thats a sexy blade ....... think I messered my pants ............
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2009 18:28:04 GMT
Late to the party but here's my idea. The vibration in the tang during cutting can loosen the pins that hold the slabs to the tang. Worst case scenario: the sword would litterally fall apart. This can't happen with a 'standart' medieval sword grip.
|
|