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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2009 6:36:24 GMT
I wasn't sure where to put this but I wanted to say hi to everyone, and apologize in advance for all the bothersome questions I'll be asking in the months to come. Over the years I've collected a few wallhangers and what I now know to call "SLO's" but I've long wanted to own some serviceable real swords. I'm not getting any younger and I've decided it's time. First question, (and this is something I'll probably have to ask my doctor about) do any of you guys have bad backs? I've got a lot of trouble with my back and I've never done anything quite analogous to "cutting" so I'm not sure if that's liable to be safe for me or not. It's not a show stopper for me I want to collect swords regardless but I'd sure like to try some cutting. I've got an elderly Tai Chi sword I've tried swinging around and I've found the motion actually kind of relaxing for my back but I have to think I'll be ramping up the stress on the muscles with either the Cold Steel Grosse Messer or the VA Atrim Practical Long Sword I've got my eye on. I'm only 48 so I'm not completely ancient and I'm a big guy and I used to lift weights so the strength is there, I'm just wondering if anyone else has any experience of cutting with a bad back.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2009 7:39:49 GMT
Wear a weight lifters belt? (Guessing)
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Post by kidcasanova on Sept 27, 2009 8:05:00 GMT
I was in a car accident three years ago, and flipped my car. The roof caved in and somewhat compressed my spine, which hasn't healed. Standing/walking for a shift at work can wear on me pretty bad (usually standing for 9-ish hours) and leave me sore for a few days. (Kind of sad that I'm only 21 eh? It sounds worse than it is)...
That said, I don't have any trouble cutting. The motions aren't impacting me quite like walking/lifting would. Unless you've got a really bad back, cant twist your upper body side to side, etc. I don't think you'd have a problem. Of course, if you're worried then I'd really suggest getting a check up and mentioning it to get a professional opinion. The suggestion to wear a brace isn't a bad one, either. Maybe wear one the first session and if you feel fine, take it off and see.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2009 9:13:08 GMT
Hey, You haven't really mentioned what the problem is and/or what treatment you've had, so I'll offer some general advice. A bit from my own back pain experience and a bit from my physiotherapy background. If you haven't had treatment, get some Do you have anyone you have seen or regularly see? Getting professional advice is always better than advice from randoms on the internet How do you usually manage your pain? It's a good idea to approach new activities with a plan... don't dive in too quick if things feel ok to begin with. Start off slow with a plan to back off, etc if things get worse. Perhaps try a few minutes at a time, or count cuts, etc and gradually build up your time/cuts, speed and effort. Really good technique trumps force any day... sometimes I'll try and cut a milk jug as slowly as possible... A belt will likely only have a small beneficial effect if any (vs a large effect of placebo ) so the really important part is getting your body ready for cutting. A substantial warm up may be beneficial to your session... on the other hand too much work might aggravate your pain... need to find a happy balance. Try to move with your legs rather than your back - keep your shoulders on top of your hips. Take steps to move and keep your back relaxed and comfortable. Getting your technique right would be an important focus, so if you can film yourself practicing and you know what good form is, that's a great way to train. What I have noticed with novice cutters is that they'd practice their technique just fine without a target but when you put something in front of them they just try to smash it. Don't do this
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2009 13:18:16 GMT
I'm actually only 22 and have back probs for some reason... but doing JSA actually helps it... with the Hakama and the Obi on, and the need to have good posture it keeps your back nice and straight and nothing we ever do has put any stress on my back, at least none i could notice.
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Post by sparky on Sept 27, 2009 13:32:13 GMT
Bad backs SUCK!
I have degenerative arthritis and I cut! I try to do it on my "good days" though. My back brace really does not offer much help in the cutting department. For me I just try not to over do it, which is hard 'cause it's so darn fun!
So I'd say start light and figure out what works best for you, and have fun.
Welcome to SBG
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2009 14:00:23 GMT
Welcome. I have L4 and L5 herniated discs that flare up once in awhile but cutting with a katana doesn't seem to produce any stress for me. Simple cutting requires good posture so it is not like being off-balance or lifting.
My knees and weight effectively made iaido too difficult for me because of the kneeling and rising motions (50 and fat but not weak). I blew out my right knee joint sideways 25 years ago in an SCA event and it has given me problems ever since.
I bought my first real blade about 2 years ago. Now my sword count is rising towards 8 blades including an expensive custom still in the works. It is an addicting hobby.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2009 15:07:11 GMT
Welcome aboard. I hope it all works out for you as cutting is as much fun as collecting.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Sept 27, 2009 15:28:22 GMT
Hi slackitude, Check with your doc and make sure your form is good before trying full speed cuts. Avoid twisting your back relative to your hips. For instance, start a cut with your right foot back and your left foot forward holding the sword at your right shoulder. Step with your right foot as you cut. The sword should reach maximum extension at the same time as your right foot lands. Keep your knees slightly bent and your wight on the balls of your feet. Don't over rotate your shoulders with a big follow through to your cut. Start with your shoulders facing about 45 degrees to the right of the target and end with them facing about 45 degrees to the left.
Also keep your shoulders relaxed and don't hunch over at any part of the cut or over-extend. Practice slow at first and get smooth, controlled motion before trying to get fast. Smooth will become fast. Fast first will become sloppy.
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Post by wiwingti on Sept 27, 2009 15:34:48 GMT
from my own experience, i have a discal hernia and from the moment i stoped doing work out, i had two problems lol
i started to get more weight and my back started to hurt again, and since, i have difficulty to take back on it because it is hard to lose weight without training and i have dificulty to train because of my back,, so,, i suggest to, if your body can,, train to make your back stronger and it will be easyer. i am 41 and have that problem since 10 years now so, i know what is back problems
and once your back is ok with training.. (never stop) it is the mistake we all do lol
marc
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2009 3:32:59 GMT
Wow. Thanks so much for all the answers, and especially for all the good information. My situation is three herniated disks and spinal arthritis. The surgeon says eventually I'll need a spinal fusion but he's waiting until it get worse. (this makes no sense to me and I'm getting a second opinion soon) I don't currently go to physical therapy as they gave me an exercise regimen I could do at home but I should be able to double check with them as to the advisability of cutting, I'd just sort of prefer not to as I have the feeling it might be the sort of thing to get a knee-jerk reaction of "That's a bad idea" (possibly I'm being unfair to the physical therapist, I just picture her picturing me swinging a huge sword around and thunking it into telephone poles or some similar sort of mischief) Now that I have a better idea what sort of motions I need to be making I'll be trying them with the sword I do have but as I said, so far on "good back days" (I know exactly what you mean Sparky) I've found the motion kind of relaxing for my back. One more question, the "Exalt" button, is that for someone who's answer was helpful? Because it seems to me I owe several "Exalt's" here.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2009 4:04:06 GMT
If you're worried about the "that's a bad idea" comment (and to be fair I'm sure lots of people may say that straight off the bat, being ignorant of our sport ) and are uncomfortable with carefully feeling it out for yourself, it might be worth seeing a sports rehab specialist - they are more likely to help manage the demands of this sort of thing without telling you to stop. Unfortunately they are pretty rare and expensive. Which country do you live in? In places with socialised medicine, surgeons are far less likely to willy nilly suggest fusions. If you live in the US, a second opinion seems to be a good idea (given my limited experience with these issues, I don't live there). One thing, though... while it can help to get an idea of what might be wrong, one shouldn't get too hung up on the medical imaging... disc herniations and arthritis are normal aspects of aging and many people have these without pain.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2009 4:40:51 GMT
I'm pretty comfortable with feeling my own way, slowly working my way up and seeing what my back will let me do. Even if I go too far and throw my back out it just means a day of laying in bed and contemplating the lesson I have learned. Wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last. I have to live with this back and i can't have the luxury of second guessing every move I make so sometimes I have to ask for informed opinions (which I feel I've gotten here) and then feel my way. And yes, I live in the United States. Thanks again.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2009 5:16:42 GMT
Let me say first off i have never had any formal training, well not with a sword. Just read "A LOT" and i've learned one very important thing in doing so. This isn't about cutting per se but rather form in cutting. How to word this i'll quote Miyamoto Musashi to start
Know quickness over speed, power over strength.
In short its a statement about form. To start with i wouldn't even try cutting just yet. Instead go through the motions of each cut. Don't do this swinging as fast as you can. And especially not swinging with all the strength you possess. Simply go through the motions "slowly" and work on form.
As time goes by and your form picks up the blade should sing on its own. And reasonably if you don't feel anything doing it this way. You might be fine cutting, though fair waring you will likely experience some pain. But that pain should be expected just due to the weight of blade and slow speed.
Again no formal sword training. But this method has helped my up my game so to speak. And in general lets me know just how good or bad my body is feeling that day. Won't say get checked out (though i just did) pretty sure you'll do that if need be.
Take Care!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2009 6:45:32 GMT
As for cutting and a bad back...it really depends on a lot of factors...however any time of the hand cuts can be done bad back or no. In fact, my lower back/sciatica issue has relegated most of my cutting to such strokes.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2009 16:51:53 GMT
Take it slow and see how it feels...I understand your lack of desire to bring it to your health provider, and I'm cautious in counseling you to do so- and not just because you could get the knee-jerk reaction you fear. If this is your PCP, then you need to inform them that you are going to pursue this activity- naturally, they can't tell you what you can and can't do, only what you shouldn't. Get a second opinion, that's always smart anyway.
If you're still unsure about taking that first step well...maybe you might be close enough to some other forumites that you could come out and observe a cutting session and maybe mimic the movements in slo-mo, see how your back takes it. Then go home, practice those moves empty handed until you feel comfortable enough to pick up a sword and try that out.
If there's still no pain or discomfort, maybe you'll be ready for your first bottle kill. What have you got to lose from taking it slow and easy?
48's not old...maybe just old enough to remind you that you're mortal, but not old enough to stop you from doing anything you really want to do.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2009 17:01:13 GMT
Hey Slacktitude, another swordsman here with back issues, I inherited a bad spine, had a herniated L5 that I had surgery for in 1987. They took care of it via microsurgery, and there was never any talk of fusion, I thought that went out with the 60's I don't pick up anything over 50lbs, and see a chiropractor several times a year, or for what I call the "Train Wrecks" that happen occasionally. I have a CS Grosse Messer that I cut with, and it has never made my back hurt. I recently got a Tinker Great Sword of War which is heaver than the Grosse Messer, and which is probably the heaviest sword I can handle competently, and it did not make my back hurt to cut with it. The Exalt button is exactly what you thought it was, you can use it to award 1 Karma point to anyone that you think gave a useful or informative answer There is a recharge time of 1 hour, I believe, before you can award another Karma point Cheers, Mike.
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Post by sparky on Sept 28, 2009 23:57:20 GMT
My situation is three herniated disks and spinal arthritis. The surgeon says eventually I'll need a spinal fusion but he's waiting until it get worse. (this makes no sense to me and I'm getting a second opinion soon) I have a friend who had his neck vertebrae fused, he wishes they could have done it years earlier! Big deal he can't look over his shoulder, he's not in pain! And he's not doped up or killing himself slowly with some of these arthritis medicines. I was hoping to cut this weekend...... but a weather front came through...... it stinks being a barometer.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2009 2:52:14 GMT
Welcome to the forum friend . I agree with those who advise a weight lifting belt. Perhaps a few easy back exercises would help before you start? I've never really had back problems before...so I'm just putting out suggestions (however obvious they may be .
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