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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2009 22:46:36 GMT
which would be better for 9260 steel Dh hardened or TH i was told DH is this correct?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2009 22:53:05 GMT
I have the Cheness Kaze Katana that is 9260 DH. I love the strength of the sword. The DH will hold its shape pretty well and will hold an edge for a long time. Does anyone make a TH 9260? I have never used it. I do have the 9260 Cheness Oniyuri though, and it seems extreamly tough. I'm very happy with both of my swords!
Please, anyone correct me if I'm mistaken in any of my comments. I'm still just a noob.
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Post by sicheah on Aug 25, 2009 22:56:41 GMT
I am quite sure all of Cheness 9260 line is TH except for Kaze which is 9260 DH
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Aug 25, 2009 23:06:17 GMT
The question is the same as it would apply to any steel. Which is best for any sword steel? TH or DH? There's really nothing all that special about 9260. It's just another good steel.
Just know you wont get the sexy hamon with 9260 vs your 10XX range or 5160 etc.
DH and TH both have different benefits, in any steel type.
DH has a harder edge, and will stay sharper longer through clean cutting. But the hardness is more brittle, and can chip or fracture easier in an accident. The soft spine is also more likely to set in a flubbed cut than a through spring temper.
TH has a softer edge due to the compromised level of hardness. It allows acceptable edge holding AND good impact absorbtion. TH will be tougher for abuse due to it's softer edge, but not hold an edge as well as DH. (Yes soft is tougher than hard). Also with the through spring temper it will handle hard flexing, such as in the case of a flubbed cut, better.
I guess it comes down to whether you want a competitive cutter or a backyard beater. DH for cutting, TH for beating.
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Post by Eaglehawk on Aug 25, 2009 23:16:09 GMT
I agree with Brendan. DH will give you a sharper edge, but more brittle so you need to be more precise with you cuts. TH is not as brittle so can survive bad cuts better. So it all depends on what you want to do with it.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Aug 25, 2009 23:31:56 GMT
Yeah, the question as you post it doesn't quite make sense. The specific type of steel won't really care whether it is DH or TH. Whether or not you chose DH or TH has much more to do with what you want out of the sword than it has to do with what steel you're using. DH is less forgiving (it can take a set easier on a flubbed cut) than TH so might not be the best choice if you are a beginner.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2009 0:58:34 GMT
Specific steel does matter. A high carbon steel such as 1095 would not do as well if TH. It would be brittle. Most TH swords are 1060 (5160, 9260) or below. The higher the carbon, the harder and more brittle.
I suppose you could temper them afterward to make it less so, but that just makes it soft. The best combo is a hard edge and softer spine.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2009 6:13:14 GMT
i would imagine that the flexiblitiy issue is the one that is most important because when the targets become more thick the blade is going to need to flex to make the best cut. also between the three which is superior 1060,5160 or 9260?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2009 6:34:15 GMT
i would imagine that the flexiblitiy issue is the one that is most important because when the targets become more thick the blade is going to need to flex to make the best cut. also between the three which is superior 1060,5160 or 9260? Blades need to be quite stiff, not flexible. In a perfect cut, the blade travels a straight true line. if the blade is flimsy, the cut may not be as good and waver with the forces. The flex part of the equation comes in when your cut is not true. It allows recovery from a mistake without bending or shattering. It is like the airbag in your car, not used until needed. 5160 and 9260 contain elements that allow a greater spring factor. All three have the same carbon content so they will be equal in other qualities. You will see the next statement time and time again so you might as well commit it to memory now: The steel is far less important than who makes the blade. Steel is only potential. Give me a hunk of L6 and a hammer. I will then produce the crappiest sword known to man as I have absolutely no idea how to make a sword. My bet is that a 1045 by Howard Clark can out-perform many a higher carbon steel blades out there.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2009 10:46:48 GMT
a TH blade cannot have a authentic hamon so for aesthetic and performance purposes wouldnt a DH be better?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2009 12:06:20 GMT
what about Diff temper? i think M. Tinker Pierce used to do this
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2009 0:07:03 GMT
a TH blade cannot have a authentic hamon so for aesthetic and performance purposes wouldnt a DH be better? Some TH blades do show a hamon. It is caused by the thinner edge cooling more quickly than the thicker spine. It is not common but does happen. I doubt that the hardness difference is as pronounced as in DF.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2009 5:26:37 GMT
Some TH blades do show a hamon. It is caused by the thinner edge cooling more quickly than the thicker spine. It is not common but does happen. I doubt that the hardness difference is as pronounced as in DF. If it shows a hamon, then there is considerable difference in hardness. Blades need to be quite stiff, not flexible. In a perfect cut, the blade travels a straight true line. if the blade is flimsy, the cut may not be as good and waver with the forces. The flex part of the equation comes in when your cut is not true. It allows recovery from a mistake without bending or shattering. It is like the airbag in your car, not used until needed. 5160 and 9260 contain elements that allow a greater spring factor. All three have the same carbon content so they will be equal in other qualities. You will see the next statement time and time again so you might as well commit it to memory now: The steel is far less important than who makes the blade. Steel is only potential. Give me a hunk of L6 and a hammer. I will then produce the crappiest sword known to man as I have absolutely no idea how to make a sword. My bet is that a 1045 by Howard Clark can out-perform many a higher carbon steel blades out there. Your statement on flex is contradicting, unless you mean that there should be an equilibrium between stiffness and flexibility, so that if a cut is botched there is enough give so as not to damage the blade, but not so stiff the blade is a crowbar, as flex is entirely a product of geometry not heat treat as evidenced here. The alloys do not "allow for a greater spring factor". /index.cgi?board=swordmakingstickies&action=display&thread=11076 Tempering does impart toughness in trade for hardness, Alloying does the same thing, it adds toughness. You are correct in that steel is less important than the maker, but there is a point of diminishing returns. While Howard and many other smiths could take 1045 and push it to it's limits, those limits are very limited as it's really a sempriniesque steel for swords. i would imagine that the flexiblitiy issue is the one that is most important because when the targets become more thick the blade is going to need to flex to make the best cut. also between the three which is superior 1060,5160 or 9260? No, you have it backwards, the blade will need to flex less if the target is heavy, as with a sword made for kabutowari (iron helmet cutting) versus a sword made for tatami (soft fleshy target). The helmet cutting sword will be very beefy, with quite steep edge bevels, whereas the tatami sword will be thinner and wider with a much keener edge. Specific steel does matter. A high carbon steel such as 1095 would not do as well if TH. It would be brittle. Most TH swords are 1060 (5160, 9260) or below. The higher the carbon, the harder and more brittle. I suppose you could temper them afterward to make it less so, but that just makes it soft. The best combo is a hard edge and softer spine. I have said it before and will say it again, no steel is inherently brittle, it is the heat treat given that steel that decides weather it will be brittle or tough. Barring any other variables such as blade shape, 1060, 5160, 9260, 1095, 1084, L6, O1, I can take every one of those steels and leave them just as hardened so that you could drop them on a concrete floor and they would shatter like glass. Where I could do the same and temper each one properly and they would flex past 90 degress and return perfectly straight. IN FACT, differentially hardened blades are often times more brittle than through hardened due to lack of tempering. Through hardened blades in a toughness test will 9 times out of 10, barring other things such as blade shape and geometry, out perform differentially hardened blades in that the differentially hardened blades will stay bent where a through hardened blade will flex back. And that is same steel, same hardness, same temper, same shape. I am stunned reading this thread how people come out and say "this is best" and "that is best", how much experience and understanding of the differences between each do many people actually have? from the arguments presented, not many have done much reading past what the companies themselves say to sell swords, the poor info presented on those same sites, and what the preciding ignorant argument is on the forums when real life and real blades are MUCH different. I know firsthand, I have SEEN it firsthand, I have done both and understand the metallurgy behind it and the properties and performance of both through hardened and differentially hardened blades firsthand.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2009 5:26:40 GMT
is a DH blade edge more brittle and more proned to chipping than a TH blade? which would all around be more resilliant to wear and tear?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2009 5:32:38 GMT
Just what are you trying to ask? At the moment you are beating around the bush with a number of questions that have some relationship to each other but you haven't joined the dots for us. The question is what do you want do with the sword? Are you trained? What kind of sword are you talking about? There are many factors that go into a sword and depending on what you want it for there are different answers.
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Aug 27, 2009 12:58:12 GMT
Wow... Well put, Sam. That's basically what I wanted to say but don't have the knowledge or experience to express, not to mention that there were parts that I didn't know in the first place. ;D Regardless, thanks for explaining that. +1 -Slayer
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2009 14:13:14 GMT
from what i have seen for me a TH blade would be best suited based on the toughness factor always gotta go with toughness over looks.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2009 15:26:19 GMT
from what i have seen for me a TH blade would be best suited based on the toughness factor always gotta go with toughness over looks. Another thing, everyone thinks this is all so simple and magical. "OH IF THEY SAY IT IS DH/TH, THAT MEANS IT IS DONE PROPERLY" When reality is something else all together. There is more ways to screw up the heat treating process than there is to be successful at it, and poor QC and poor practices as with most SUB300$ swords (not all) could mean that either will be brittle or bendy. It's not just choosing a steel, not just choosing DH or TH, it's choosing a good company or maker.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2009 15:45:15 GMT
Sam: That is a good point, may I ask who you consider to be good makers? You can PM me the list if you like, I am a bit frustrated with the offerings in the production market because they are never what I want. I am seriously considering saving up and going full custom.
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Aug 27, 2009 16:23:32 GMT
At the end of the day you get what you pay for.
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