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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2009 17:11:07 GMT
Hello yours, congratulation to the great Forum and Newsletter. I am located in Germany and interested in chinese Jian and Dao. Mainly for Tai Chi sword form and some cutting. When looking for older swords on the WWW I often find blades which are said to be handmade and ancient. Lots of them show copper like inlays or rivets on the blade as per example. Does anyone know what this rivets are for? I suppose they must weaken the blade. However, most of the "ancient" swords or blades offered I suppose they are brand new fakes, designet as old ones. Therefore there must be a reason for it. At museum or exhibition I have never seen blades with rivets at all. Does anyone have some experience with those blades? Any explanation would be appreciated. Sé onr Sverdar sitja Hvass! Torsten
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Post by hotspur on Aug 7, 2009 19:12:48 GMT
The seven inlays, which are diagonally opposed represent the daoist meanings behind the Great Bear celestial constellation. There are diffrent interpretations of the importance but the basic gist in the terms of arms display is (I believe) success and positive progress.
I have read of it in another tale of one climbing to or sitting on the throne. Also reference to seven stars in martial arts. I am curious if other forumites might have more information. I had wondered about this some years ago while owning such a blade (which was quite tourista bu a nice blade).)
Cheers
Hotspur; the origin and true meaning would be of intrest to me but the true context to the constellation is not exactly known by me
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2009 19:59:27 GMT
You might want to bring your question to the Chinese Swords forum here, where those who know even more than I can field the question. Hotspur is correct in stating what the inlays are purported to mean. However, only tourist pieces have those inlays. Real Chinese swords do not. I personally recommend Jin-Shi if you are wanting something good for forms and cutting or wait until Hanwei releases their Scott Rodell design "cutting" Jian. The practical broadsword can be used for cutting, but is not the best blade out there.
Unfortunately, trying to find a truly "battle ready" Chinese blade in the sub $300 market leaves a person with very limited choices.
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Post by hotspur on Aug 7, 2009 21:42:09 GMT
I know my dumpster dive find in the 1980s of a jian was put together rather poorly as a tourista piece. The blade itself was of pretty good quality though and was later absconded by a now deceased friend to mount it properly. I never got it back but it was an interesting blade. I have to wonder though whether the modern perception of these marks may make it seem they are/were never found on period swords. I know this due to some previous browsing and this site in particular. www.arscives.com/historysteel/cn.steelswords.htmBoth the forums attached to Antonio's site and the Viking Sword Ethnographic forums may be of use (once registered at either or both). www.bladesignforum.com/viewforum.php?www.vikingsword.com/vb/There is a continued importance in daily life regarding the seven stars and object placements. I'm not positive but the jian I had years ago was quite haphazard in the cutlery effort and seemed almost more Filipino. Mahogany and sheet brass trim on the scabbard nad a rather sloppy stick tang hafting (which while can be quite sturdy) that seemed in that case for decoration only. I had made my own handle of a steel core and brass "tsuba" I had cut out of a grooved brass nameplate. My friend had tired of polishing it a couple of times after leaving it in my car trunk while rusting too many times. The blade steel itself seemed quite good though and had readily taken a sharp edge and displaying a good spring temper. I miss it but have to agree that I wasn't taking very good care of it before it had been adopted by my friend (a decent grinder in his own right). Cheers Hotspur; Tom of Seven Stars Trading could probably fill in some blanks as well
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2009 21:57:52 GMT
Tom of Seven Stars would definitely be helpful here, as would some input from Garrett of Jin-Shi.
The Wikipedia has this to say on the symbolism of the Seven Stars in the Taoist tradition:
So it makes sense for the decoration to be featured on blades, as Chinese Sword Arts are heavily influenced by Taoist tradition, particularly the "internal" styles of Chinese Wushu (martial arts). It was my understanding that the inclusion of the copper rivets into the blade itself was reserved for "tourist" type pieces, as such inclusion would weaken a blade. Again, I would direct the OP to post this question in the Chinese Swords section here at the SBG forum where those who know more than I can give their opinions.
LB
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Post by hotspur on Aug 7, 2009 22:29:51 GMT
No offense ;D but I find wiki sources offered as real information as a baseline largely ignored in serious research. Superficial at best and often leads folk in the wrong directions.
Cheers
Hotspur; much more than the Wiki article is vast resource in some pretty simple investigation of searches. Wiki can be a start for some but too often related as some treasure of knowledge
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Post by sicheah on Aug 7, 2009 23:02:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2009 23:14:45 GMT
The 7 rivets, are for the Seven Stars. Those types swords are used in ghost remedy rituals etc - not made for combat. We had one at the house in Vietnam. If you see those on the web now that means they're cheap chinese knock-offs and not ancient.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2009 0:26:11 GMT
No offense ;D but I find wiki sources offered as real information as a baseline largely ignored in serious research. Superficial at best and often leads folk in the wrong directions. Cheers Hotspur; much more than the Wiki article is vast resource in some pretty simple investigation of searches. Wiki can be a start for some but too often related as some treasure of knowledgeTrue, one should not consider a wiki the end of researching, but only the beginning of research. In this particular case I was already familiar with the source material the wiki happens to have been using. Little, Stephen and Shawn Eichman, et al. Taoism and the Arts of China (Chicago: Art Institute of Chicago, 2000). ISBN 0-520-22784-0 That book also has an excellent article on Zheng Wu that I refer to often. The question is how curious are other reading the thread? Do they want in depth scholarly study, our is the information of a wiki enough to satisfy a passing interest? As for the Op's question on if he should use such a blade for forms practice and light cutting, I stand by my original answer of "No" there are better blades for that. Though there are a limited amount of options in the Chinese Swords market.
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