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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2009 20:42:44 GMT
So I was trolling eBay looking for that occasional diamond in the rough (or impulse buy) when I came across this: cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-MEDIEVAL-CHRISTIAN-CRUSADE-SWORD-BLADE_W0QQitemZ220458810047QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item33545e7abf&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14Given that forgers are getting better every day, what do you guys think of this gem? Real or not real? I'll give you some background; the seller is either unlearned or made his ad deliberately 'low-brow' as it reads like something you'd see in a child's primer but the lack of punctuation should not vilify this seller alone. Here are the specs as they're written on the site: OAL: 37" (no hilt, no grip, just blade and tang) BL: 30.5 BW: 3.25 (wow that's wide) It has a pronounced rib, stated to be 11/16" in thickness so maybe it was lightly hollow ground at some point? The blade's got etchings in Latin- you should see the pics, he's got all the bells and whistles as far as enlarging the pics as well as a zoom feature. I should state, since I dont have a RoMS in front of me, I hesitate to state what typology this sword falls under, but if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say its a XVII but don't quote me on it. I'll have to look in my RoMS tonight and see if I'm right. Probably not. Price tag: $6000 What do you all think? Edited to add: the auction closes at 6pm EST tomorrow so go have a look!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2009 20:56:01 GMT
RIP-OFF!!!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2009 23:26:39 GMT
What makes you say that, greypilgrim?
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 31, 2009 23:40:33 GMT
So many things have me concerned about that sword, seller's description aside. The width and length I would typically question but they're not really that out of the ordinary, but I wonder about them, anyway. That ridge, too, just bothers me for some reason. Such a sharp ridge, more like a random bump than a ridge... The tang is miniscule and I can't really make out the end, but from what I can('t) see I see no signs of peening or removal of peen. A sword like this should at least have a guard and pommel no? Top it all off with the shoulders of the blade/tang, they're a very harsh angle...shouldn't they be more rounded or is this normal for a blade of this alleged period? That pitting is pretty horrible, there'd be a lot of work in faking it...but it'd still be possible... Even if it were legit, and I had the money, I'd not buy it from this seller just based on his "description." "refer to some book from some museum for the specs on a sword that's kind of like this one...sort of" is not a good way to sell anything.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2009 0:22:11 GMT
Isn't red rust a sign of active rusting? That would seem to indicate it is still rusting. Of course someone could have just recovered it and erm, not know anything about steel.. the background layout, (the towel wrapped around it in one pic, the wadded up drop-cloth) the CAPS LOCK OMG all scream amateur; so what can he tell you about the provenance of the sword? If the answer is nothing, there's your answer. Also, the transition of the tang from flat to round reminds me of every production sword I've dissassembled, and the ridge seems too perfect, as do the engravings. It screams fake antiqued wallhanger to me, but I'm no expert.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2009 0:27:59 GMT
Let's start with NO authentication by anyone, follow up with "bought it after a gun show", and end up with it's still sharp. The rat tail tang and square shoulder where the blade and tang meet just DO NOT look right for an original, they look just like my first "El Cid"SLO. The engravings on the blade are too clear and easy to read for allegedly being that old,especially after he cleaned the rust off it and coated it with some unnamed preservative. Might be a 19 century reproduction of an older original but that is purely a wild a-- guess. For 6 grand I want to see the car-fax. These are just my opinions after looking at swords for 40 years,YMMV,K
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2009 0:33:45 GMT
The tang-blade junction is weird: seems we can almost see a rectangle where the tang went into the blade to be welded...tang is thin and ends weird, shoulders are pretty square (as random noted)...I would vouch for fake, but then again, what do I know? Btw, it doesn't have to fall into an Oakeshott type, many historical were tweeners...or even miscellaneous...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2009 1:09:39 GMT
GreyPilgrim has good points!
Even if I'm no expert, or rather because of that, I would never ever buy an "antique" sword without proper authentication, not one that looks like that one anyway.
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Post by hotspur on Aug 1, 2009 3:08:06 GMT
I have a good idea where the sword came from and why another seller would basically pass on the information they were offered. Take a look at this seller and his activity over the past year or so. Simply someone churning stuff out and the item will remain listed as buy now of best off until someone does go for the same story. Check his other blade offered at $150 (farm machinery part or something else sold him a bill of goods, no doubt. The gloves are a cute touch and probably used as suggested by the previous seller that sold him the goods. if not who I'm specifically, one of a good number of sellers that age goods with museum provenance. Spurs and daggers are commonly sold as old as well. My feeling is that he was fooled at a price that looked good and sellable as true due to the previous seller's assurances (one will even offer a useless certificate of authenticity).
Not enough to fret about, really.
Cheers
Hotspur; there are a lot of old city and government swords of office that are sometimes passed around as something older. They were still quite commonly made as what they represent up into the 19th century
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2009 3:32:23 GMT
Let's start with NO authentication by anyone, follow up with "bought it after a gun show", and end up with it's still sharp. The rat tail tang and square shoulder where the blade and tang meet just DO NOT look right for an original, they look just like my first "El Cid"SLO. The engravings on the blade are too clear and easy to read for allegedly being that old,especially after he cleaned the rust off it and coated it with some unnamed preservative. Might be a 19 century reproduction of an older original but that is purely a wild a-- guess. For 6 grand I want to see the car-fax. These are just my opinions after looking at swords for 40 years,YMMV,K I wasn't knocking your opinion. I'm not a sword collector so was wondering what was tipping you off... Looking at the tang again, though, I do not that it becomes round for the last half inch or so, suggesting (to this amateur, at least) a screwed pommel or pommel nut was removed. I may be wrong but I don't think anyone actually used screwed on pommels or pommel nuts until the last hundred years...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2009 6:19:28 GMT
Non functioning city sword for use in court, year unknown, but thats my guess, And as to the Latin, from Spain commemorating the ousting of the moors from Spain, but thats just my opinion......Good fake if thats what it is, SanMarc.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2009 6:24:52 GMT
This Idea just cam to me, since we have a " measurement, some one use the computer and convert to metric, and see if the inscription is spaced out in metric, if it is, then the sword is post 1500 AD, or a modern fake, since the metric system wasn't introduced to Europe until the 1500's by the Spanish.....SanMarc.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2009 14:18:06 GMT
Good points, all...it is a massive object to say the least, 3.25" in width? Noticed that the rib starts above where the guard should be...you'd think it'd be level with the shoulders but it isn't. It looks almost like wrought iron.
Anyway, I wasn't considering it, just wondered what you guys thought.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2009 22:45:39 GMT
The blade is a bit similar to this Del Tin: www.deltin.net/5146.htmBut the tang and latin inscription does look like something more modern.
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Post by hotspur on Aug 2, 2009 1:08:44 GMT
I can't say I know the entirety of the histories of the like of Eftis Paraskevaides but if you were to Google the name, you would see some related types of issues in buying from and then reselling what some may list as authentic. This goes way beyond the simpler aged modern production items and any militaria type sword listed from China. the forum world is not at all in the dark regarding old looking katana and the rest of militaria is the same ball of wax.
My feeling about the ebay sword listed here is more likely to have been sold to the current seller with a bill of goods from the likes of Eftis' practices. Museum certifications and/or provenance sell well to the unwary and despite satisfaction garauntees from sellers, getting money back in these situations problematic at best. As the linked seller in this thread offers for others to make suggestions on the sword, I really feel like he had simply been one of the duped. If you Google for Eftis, you'l see threads at myArmoury and SFI from the past. The numanistic collectors have way more stories about fraud they can share and offer lists of such sellers.
The only caveat I would suggest other than continuing the what to look for threads is that auction interference and other legal issues may become a problem for any posters (let alone sites themselves).
Also consider participating on the Ebay forums regarding some of these sales. It is not something I would mandate but simply another place to sound off and possibly resolve some of the real theivery. Keep in mind that Ebay fully supports less than specific descriptions of new made to look old. It is their own caveat to simply learning what is real value and what is relative junk that passes from hand to hand because of a flowery story.
Good luck on Ebay. I know I have bought several good bargains and cruise for a great many more. I know Marc Ridgeway here did once submit a guidline for katana and there are similar for military and other antique objects.
Cheers
Hotpsur; I believe it is Eftis' kid that now markets questionable items but I'm not associating the current sword in question as having to being involved except mebbe after it changed hands (even several times).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2009 15:05:35 GMT
Hey, hey...so the auction ended w/out anyone making a bid so it has been relisted...at a 50% increase for a total of $9000 (not including $200 shipping). Hey, I guess a guy can dream, can he not?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2009 8:23:19 GMT
Oh the guys Dreaming Allright!!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2009 14:50:56 GMT
Now there's another auction, this time for $2499 and only $120 in shipping! I wonder how low he'll go...there's absolutely no provenance on this sword...that is, he isn't offering any. He's just trolling for suckers.
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