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Post by brotherbanzai on Jul 30, 2009 17:59:52 GMT
This is something I wonder about more and more every time I see a nice looking long sword. It seems that nearly every production long sword has a grip length right around 7 inches. While this could be classified as "two handed" since you can physically fit two hands on there at once, in actual use it's really only a hand-and-a-half. As soon as you start to move the sword around while fighting, you'll discover that 7 inches isn't enough room to maneuver with and your rear hand is hanging off the pommel. You really need a good 8 1/2 - 9 inches to be able to use a sword as a two handed sword. Oakeshott's typology also seems to indicate 6-7 inches as hand 1/2 with 8-10 being two handed.
Now I realize that not everyone practices Liechtenauer or Fiore for long sword and there may be other methods that don't require a longer grip, but those two are basically the only choices for those studying long sword use today. I've also noticed that the I-beam training blunts that the manufacturers sell for long sword practitioners usually do have the longer grip.
So my question is, why don't the other long swords offered have a longer grip? Is it that most of the people buying them aren't actually using them so it's not worth the extra cost to the manufacturer to make them longer?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2009 18:30:13 GMT
Good Question, I look forward to hearing some answers.
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Post by hotspur on Jul 30, 2009 21:35:46 GMT
That reads as somewhat non-sensical to me but they are two names probably amongst the two most familiar. A good bit of grip length preference is perhaps built into your perception becasue of that. For instance, maybe look at the differences between say, Ringneck and and Vadi as just two more "instructions" one might consider.
Some of these preferences and understandings are also going to be subjective when looking at historical sword descriptions vs modern terminologies and categorizing perfect examples with our own subjective opinion. Go so far as Silver and you have him describing his long sword blade exactly the same blade length as his single hand use (or am I thinking of someone else?).
I have large hands and have no problem winding and manuver with seven inch grips. Be that even if I am using a pommel instead of the grip proper. Some systems may deny use of the pommel in handling, others endorse it.
As to why some may offering only a given length, mebbe you do see that many of that length but my own perspective might see a more diverse spread in them.
Myself, I find my own use of longer sword grips still often finds me steering with the pommel. Again, some systems may resist that use while others endorse it.
Maybe you could narrow down exactly which manufacturers are exhibiting the trend. I just don't see it myself but I am not much of a haunt of CAS/Hanwei and Valiant, or G2, actually fewer than I could remark as concentrating as a seven inch grip for "longswords" ;D Maybe I'm looking to you to then quantify that particular list of manufacturers in that particular bracket.
Cheers
Hotspur; I try to treat each sword I own as individual in use and pratice but others may feel a given is somehow problematic
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Post by brotherbanzai on Jul 31, 2009 18:10:01 GMT
Not sure what's nonsensical about that. I believe the majority of the people studying long sword are either studying the German or the Italian tradition. The German tradition was founded by Liechtenauer, Ringeck is in the Liechtenauer tradition as is Von Danzig and Meyer. I'm not familiar with the Italian as that is not what I study.
It seems that perhaps you're "not a haunt" of those manufacturers which this forum mainly covers. If that is indeed the case, I'll use Albion as an example.
Baron 7 5/8"grip Agincourt 7 1/4" grip Talhoffer 7" grip Crecy 6 5/8" grip Labdgraf 7" grip Sempach 7" grip Munich 9 7/8" grip Regent 7 1/2" grip Earl 7 3/4" grip
All but the Munich have the shorter grip. Compare that with Albion's Maestro line training swords.
The Meyer 8 5/8" grip The Liechtenauer 8 1/8" grip
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Post by hotspur on Jul 31, 2009 20:28:25 GMT
Del Tin, A&A
How many others? Is it just the trainers from Tink and Gus you see with longer grips? Hanwei, Windlass to be considered? Cold Steel? Kris?
Is it just the swords that you would hope would better fill a mold for some systems?
A good many of the Albions all have comfy cozy pommels for extra grip but I have to be honest in saying I am a pommel grabber by preference, regardless of quite a range I have on the wall here. The Del Tin 5157 and A&A German Bastrd here both have long grips. One much more suitable for German Longsword in general but I would again mention not making a use of gripping pommels may just be what other instructions evolved to more endorse the use. I actually like my A&A BP,as the larger/longer swords get tied up in close spaces (bumping rafters and chimneys). It has somewhat less than seven inches of grip and not a tapered stopper type of pommel. I love it, one or two handed. Size 12 gloves. Still, one at the cross and the other shifting gears with the pommel. Just me I guess.
As to Oakeshott. Yes, he made for a lot of somewhat bibical publishing but they are not always the prime source for judging classifications.
There has got to be some reasoning behind Albion classifying a XVa by naming it Talhoffer ;D
Cheers
Hotspur; in haunting, it is the affordable antiques that take up most of my browsing these days
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Post by shadowhowler on Aug 1, 2009 9:20:49 GMT
I would like to see more longer grips in the sub 300 price range as weill. I have very large hands, and my hands feels cramped on a 7 inch grip... which is very common in longsword to my notice as well. I knew there was a reason I loved the look of Albion Munich. ;D For example... my DSA Gothic 2 handed sword and my Generation two Chaos swords have LOADS of grip space... which is awesome... but then the swords themselves are a bit heavy and not balanced how I would like. My VA Longsword is light and balanced very well, but has that short 7inch grip. Wish I could get the best of both worlds. Maybe the Munic is for me? I've noticed a fair amount of Gus Trim's self made swords have 8 - 9 inch grips on his longswords, which is one of the many reasons why I hope to pick some of them up. I just always figured I had huge paws, and production swords are made to acomodate the masses.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Aug 1, 2009 20:08:35 GMT
Hey Shadow, I don't think it's your large hands. I wear a large sized glove but can squeeze into a medium without much problem. However, if I use a long sword with a 7" grip while I'm wearing gloves, my rear hand has to be on the pommel, whether I want it there or not. There just isn't room otherwise.
Our group uses Dobringer through Meyer with more weight given to the earlier writings (Dobringer, Ringeck) as we feel they are closer to sword use for fighting where later on (Meyer) it gets more into sport. Nothing wrong with that, we just chose to focus on the older writings more. Because Dobringer specifically says "don't grip the pommel", we usually don't even though there are plenty of instances where Meyers does. That's not to say we never do, just that it isn't as common for us. So I'm not saying it's wrong to grip the pommel, but with a 7" grip, I don't have a choice.
The training swords I'm talking about are those (usually I-beam or flat cross-section) designed specifically for training in WMA, not the generic blunts which are for re-enactors and stage fighters.
So to re-state my question- Given that swords made specifically for those who are training in how to fight with a long sword have a longer grip and that Oakeshott seems to indicate the common existence of longer grips on two handed long swords, why is the longer grip comparatively rare in production long swords? (I'm looking at you Malatesta and Kriegschwert, great looking swords with grips to short for me to use anyway).
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Marc Ridgeway
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"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Aug 1, 2009 20:17:19 GMT
Thats EXACTLY what kept me from buying a Kreig.... EXACTLY.
Great looking sword but I really need a 9 inch grip. I'll probably buy the malatesta and just grip the pommel.... but damn .
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Post by shadowhowler on Aug 1, 2009 21:08:29 GMT
Thats EXACTLY what kept me from buying a Kreig.... EXACTLY. Great looking sword but I really need a 9 inch grip. I'll probably buy the malatesta and just grip the pommel.... but damn . This was part of my problem with it as well... and why I sold mine. Beautiful sword, solid, I loved it... but the short grip was a problem for me.
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Post by farandolae on Aug 1, 2009 21:14:17 GMT
I guess that's why I'm interested in the Munich. At 6' 6" I prefer the longer dimensions especially the grip. The sword appeals to me as more suited to my lanky frame.
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Post by hotspur on Aug 1, 2009 21:49:07 GMT
Towards late 2002, Gus had started exploring the dynamics of longer grip swords. Throughout the develpoment, he tended to look at it in total hilt length along with the grips themselves. At the same time (during 2003), Albion was gearing up to the Next Generation. Albion continues to work on longer swords and maybe the Dane is one folk are going to like the best of their long, long hilts. Gus spent a lot of time with nine inch grips and some continue in popularity, while some other nine inch grip swords made some better sense in dynamics to prefer a slightly shorter grip. At the start of it, Gus' longer swords were pretty much 7 - 7 1/2 inch examples. One of his test bed swords for 8 inch grips was the 1319 Xlla, not a German Longsword in any sense really, it was still working with the eight inch formula. Ata a time when he had something like a dozen Xlla going, he had come too like the slighly shorter grip on specifically the 1319 but also found it somewhat true of the XVlll and XVL variants. If that is reflected in his Valiant/Fletcher works, perhaps it relates somewhat back to his work over the past half a decade and more. That test-bed sword with an eight inch grip is in the middle of the picture below and the feeling that if he went on with that particular model (the 1319) he would do them with the eight inch grip vs a nine inch grip. The grip/pommel thread here reflects some previous discussions that were happening during that earlier clamor for longer grips. It is the same maxim as some may be looking at again and wondering why they seem a lack of them. There is a very nice looking Gus 1403 out there for sale this season. Some are surly going to have liked it better with a tapered pommel. It may just be that more of the XVlll and XVlll types may progress to longer grips from that particular source. My continued reaction is that maybe folk have perhaps pidegeon holed a fairly specific vendor or source without looking at a bigger picture of possible use. Gus had also scaled down his grinding of long-long stuff in regard to his own physical state and maybe he is working back to the exercise but I wouldn't expect a great variety to suddenly appear. Cheers Hotspur; a parallel myArmoury thread I'm thinking of is probably five. or even six years ago
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